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cite="mid:CAEYGzMBYo6Zj1Jo0qqCvNDfJZJMrK8SQH7OQ-Mj+PJDpHQdR1g@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">So... yeah... if Steve was in a conversation with
me, and tried to act proud of beating his drunk buddies in
poker... that's exactly what I was agreeing would be cringe... </div>
</blockquote>
Just to be clear, I have never felt proud of winning at poker
because the other players at the table were less capable (in the
moment because drunk, or in the large, because they did not have or
bother to acquire an understanding of the probabilities of a given
hand in a given deal)... This is what steered me away from the game
in this context. I *might* have chosen to "clean up" in those
games, though I might not have had the interpersonal fortitude to do
that even if I might have had the technical skills. Mine were very
rudimentary at that point, but I did find that *careful play* on my
part, understanding the probabilities and accepting the good/bad
"luck" as it fell without emotion generally seemed to allow me to
walk away with more than I came with. The fact that the bulk of
the other players *were* overly proud of their ability to bluff and
bully one another into playing less well was part of the turnoff for
me.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEYGzMBYo6Zj1Jo0qqCvNDfJZJMrK8SQH7OQ-Mj+PJDpHQdR1g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">but nothing that he said has any connection with
the type of strategy that goes into professional poker playing.</div>
</blockquote>
I don't know professional poker playing beyond occasionally watching
one of the TV shows that expose them or a few hands at a table in a
casino. I am sure that *all* of the players in the TV games are
technically *very* capable, but I disagree that the game at that
point might not be dominated by "gaming one another's confidence and
cool strategy"? The Casino tables I've observed were *fraught*
with attitude... but I am far from being competent to judge the
actual play underneath the posturing I see.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEYGzMBYo6Zj1Jo0qqCvNDfJZJMrK8SQH7OQ-Mj+PJDpHQdR1g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"> Why not point out that the main technical skill in
chess or go is "to play less poorly than the other player"?
Obviously that's what you are trying to do, but what does that
mean, and how do you pull it off against opponents who have
dedicated several thousand hours to studying the game? <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
You dedicate thousands of hours studying the game. I think
watching street hustlers play chess in Central Park makes this
evident... it is akin to pool hustlers. The key isn't to be the
*best* player on the street technically, but rather to trick
opponents with lesser technical skill than you into being
overconfident and then cleaning up when the stakes get to your
liking. I don't mean to suggest that street hustle chess (I
presume there is a GO equivalent) is the same as professional
chess. I have given a few hours of my time to watching a young
Russian? woman (Boaz?) play on YouTube... some Street games, some
one-on-one challenges in privacy (no audience but the camera) and
she seems to know her limitations and is clearly building skills as
she plays against a wide variety of players. She is building her
technical understanding of the game while learning what I can only
call thousands of personal styles of play. I don't know what niche
she fits in... she doesn't seem to hustle novices on the street,
but at most hustle other hustlers? Or more to the point *humble*
them while also giving them proper deference/credit when she cannot.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEYGzMBYo6Zj1Jo0qqCvNDfJZJMrK8SQH7OQ-Mj+PJDpHQdR1g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Like, here is an hour-long seminar, with simulations, that
JUST covers some aspects of how you should play the turn card
in Texas Holdem when you are in a middle position versus the
big blind. Matt starts out summarizing how you get to that
point, then the solver comes about 7 minutes in: <a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl4MpNxS_3M"
moz-do-not-send="true">Improve your Turn Strategy with Matt
Affleck - YouTube</a> ..--- If I ran into Matt, I suspect
he'd be pretty humble... but if he was proud of how good he
was at poker, I wouldn't think that was cringy at all... I've
probably watched 20-40 hours of his videos, and the way he's
manipulating the simulations, the concepts he's extracting
from them, AND his ability to sit down and implement those
strategies is impressive. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
We have clearly stepped on the toes of one of your sacred cows...
(semi?) professional poker play, and I'm happy to back up a step and
acknowledge that it can be as technical and as invested as someone
chooses to make it, and there are clearly venues for engaging in any
level of technical as well as "street hustle" play as one could
want. My "flip" observation was entirely *my* experience with
playing with people who were very emotionally invested in playing
but not particularly technically inclined... <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEYGzMBYo6Zj1Jo0qqCvNDfJZJMrK8SQH7OQ-Mj+PJDpHQdR1g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>This book is 480 pages about the modern conception of
game theory optimal play, and I doubt any academic book
about game theory is going to have better explanations of
what game theory is trying to accomplish: <a
href="https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Poker-Theory-unbeatable-principles/dp/1909457892#customerReviews"
moz-do-not-send="true">Modern Poker Theory: Building an
unbeatable strategy based on GTO principles: Acevedo,
Michael: 9781909457898: Amazon.com: Books</a> - I've
chatted with Michael online, and he's way more humble than
he should be. He has videos where he chats with Bert
Stevens, who is off and on the #1 player in the world, and
they are awesomely educational. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I suppose my only point is that out of the billions of hands of
poker played every second/hour/week in the world, I suspect
predominately more of them are played at the bully/bluff level
than with significant technical acumen. Like the Chess world,
I'm sure there are rankings of players which are obtained by a mix
of significant investment, natural ability, good mentorship, and
perhaps an element of luck for a very few who either rise to the
top or wash out over winning/losing streaks at an acutely
convenient time in the tournament or whatever.</p>
<p>I did not write the original "as cringy as... dork... poker
prowess" line but endorse the feeling that there are a LOT of
dorks in the world whose "prowess" at any given thing is often
simply being enough better than those they have encountered
(possibly by choice, referencing "hustle" contexts) that they can
pump their egos, but in fact would have their clocks cleaned by
those who are *truly* masters of the game if they ever were
exposed to same. The cringe is knowing enough about "the game"
(whatever it is) to recognize a poser who doesn't recognize their
own posing.</p>
<p>I believe you also have an investment in fencing and I am sure my
own experience (also in college) would appall you in that most of
the class/club members I was stuck fencing with were budding SCA
aspirants (SCA was fairly new then) who seemed to be interested
more in developing showy theatrical flair than in learning the
basics and actually being a *good swordsman*. While I am sure
there have evolved myriad highly capable SCA swordsmen who *also*
take it the RennFairs and demonstrate their skills whilst dressed
in period costume, the ones I knew were rather "cringey" at the
time, like the self-appointed poker sharps I played with for a few
months the year before. <br>
</p>
<p>I haven't picked up a foil or saber in 40 years, but still feel
the same visceral something in my bones/muscles/tendons when I
watch competent fencers or even reminisce about those days... I
*don't* feel that when I watch card play (because I never got good
enough?) and very little when I watch Chess (same reason). I also
don't feel it when I watch a sword scene like the classic one
between Wesley and Inigio Martinez... at the top of the cliffs,
perhaps I would if I were a gymnast or movie stunt person instead.</p>
<p>There is nothing cringey about being proud of something you are
really good at (or are on the way to becoming so), I think the
cringey has to being the kind of dork that is not good at it or is
not on the way to being so whilst imagining that one is. Or
imagining that showy pretense which can perhaps defeat (bully) a
novice is an actual substitute for real prowess.</p>
<p>I suppose I feel the same duality in good Analysis/Synthesis vs
*effective* Rhetoric... <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEYGzMBYo6Zj1Jo0qqCvNDfJZJMrK8SQH7OQ-Mj+PJDpHQdR1g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
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<div><br>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 9:23 PM
Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 11/7/21 12:02 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> There must be some kind of “Back to
the future” movie that can be made out of this. Doyne
Farmer in Vegas all over again, but with current-era AI in
place of toe-operated computers. <br>
</blockquote>
<p>Yah! Surely Casinos can't begin to restrict
computers(phones)/earbuds, etc. on the gaming floor.</p>
<p>Strange coincidence that my sister went to Kindergarten
with Vance Packard (Norm's brother) in Silver City long
before they all became eagle scouts and then the Chaos
Cabal. We moved away the next year and I doubt I ever met
any of them back then. I came to LANL just before (I
think) Doyne came... I seem to remember that Norm was
there for a summer... and soon came the (in)famous CA
conference... As I remember it the game of interest
(aside from Life, what with Conway in attendance) was GO
with a lot of speculation about the implications of local
vs global "intelligence"... I was intrigued by HashLife
and it's implications for finding structure at many
scales... I still hope for someone with more
follow-through than I have to implement a more redundant
but "thorough" space-time decomposition (an N-1xN-1 kernel
over the 4 positions at each "zoom" level).</p>
<p>Regarding poker.. I played some low-stakes in college and
saw there were two things to take in: the main technical
skill was to simply play less poorly than the other
players at the table and that was entirely overshadowed by
the social-engineering games of bluffing, etc. The very
simple game-theoretic aspect of not depleting your own
stake before you catch a "lucky streak" going your way was
also a good understanding. I played with my "boss" and a
number of peers at the time and realized that it was more
about jockeying for position at work and drinking beer
than it was about winning/losing. I think the most I ever
lost/won was on the order of $20-$40 which in those days
was roughly 1-2 shifts wages... a LOT if I joined them
weekly... too rich for my blood! I still feel that
*technically* playing well really means just playing less
badly. Blackjack being even more obviously so?<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yikes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Nov 7, 2021, at 1:56 PM, Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">My
inclination would be to invest in standoff
biometrics (e.g. Eulerian Video Amplification)
and then find the best poker playing code.
It ought to be possible to automate and
perhaps get rich in the process.</div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="border-style:solid none
none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span> </span>Friam
<<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Eric Charles<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Sunday, November
7, 2021 7:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span>The Friday Morning
Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: [FRIAM]
lurking</div>
</div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I
DID read all the thread so far... but I'm
curious how we got to one of the starting
points: "as cringy as it may be for some
dork to be proud of their Poker prowess" <br
clear="all">
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I
am somewhat satisfied with my
Poker mediocrity, certainly
not proud of it... but if I
met someone who was ACTUALLY
startlingly better than I am,
and they were proud of that, I
wouldn't find it cringy.
(Ditto in my other hobbies,
like Aikido.)</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I
guess if I met someone who had
a slight edge in their
drunk-buddy home games, and
they were super proud of THAT,
then i would find it cringy.
(Ditto someone who's the best
Aikido student in their small
dojo, but who's obviously not
more than that.) </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">When
I see academic work on game
theory, it's usually of lower
quality than what the good
poker players are doing these
days. Mastering the game is
crazy hard, and being able to
sit down and implement a
coherent and winning strategy
for 40-80 hours a week is not
easy. So... why would that be
cringe? </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On
Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 1:42 PM Marcus
Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none
none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
0in 0in
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Ok,
part of the story is knowing what is
really needed for reproducibility as a
function of context.<br>
With that, then there's the matter of
how much control is afforded. Is it
programmable in predictable ways?<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>
Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 8:20
AM<br>
To:<span> </span><a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] lurking<br>
<br>
Yeah, I agree. But context is Queen.
When the virus is created in the lab,
it's done with real stuff distilled from
the soupy world. Given enough of a
difference in context, the robot may not
be able to re-constitute the life
because the soupy world surrounding the
robot doesn't have the real stuff
required. Such drastic context changes
could be a result of translation through
space or time. E.g. trying to construct,
on Mars, an organism read/serialized on
earth. Or e.g. trying to construct an
organism read millennia ago, millennia
in the future. It's naive to talk about
"science" as if any given read-out
formula thereby expressed is *complete*.
Science is abstraction to a large extent
... maybe not as abstracting as math, of
course. And science must remain "open"
precisely because any formula it
expresses is suspect, perhaps
incomplete.<br>
<br>
My favorite example is the magic brewing
stick:<span> </span><a
href="https://medievalmeadandbeer.wordpress.com/2019/05/04/scandinavian-yeast-logs-yeast-rings/"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://medievalmeadandbeer.wordpress.com/2019/05/04/scandinavian-yeast-logs-yeast-rings/</a><span> </span>It
*was* scientific to lay out the magic
stick as a critical element of the
brewing process, only to discover later
that the stick isn't the important part.<br>
<br>
On 11/2/21 2:39 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
> Even if that were so, viruses have
been pulled from history or tweaked and
created in the lab. So we have a
design specification, and the means to
make it. One could imagine a robot
fabricating the close-to-the-metal
machine too. There is a story one can
write down how it is done. If there is
no story, it is not science we are
talking about, it is something else. <span> </span><br>
<br>
<br>
--<span> </span><br>
"Better to be slapped with the truth
than kissed with a lie."<br>
<span>☤</span>>$ uǝlƃ<br>
<br>
<br>
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<span
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<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">archives:</span><br
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<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">5/2017
thru present<span> </span></span><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,1HwvCHzBMHc9q8dL9FwTD6thlBDdmw7i9bSUZebmdoy7AlNV8bl5Inpn6PlDWdxaOG1_3wNax5YCtb2P3_Ct_dVSvtqcKX0fU7ehAs56Y-D2MA,,&typo=1"
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,1HwvCHzBMHc9q8dL9FwTD6thlBDdmw7i9bSUZebmdoy7AlNV8bl5Inpn6PlDWdxaOG1_3wNax5YCtb2P3_Ct_dVSvtqcKX0fU7ehAs56Y-D2MA,,&typo=1</a><br
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<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">1/2003
thru 6/2021 </span><a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></div>
</blockquote>
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<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe</a> <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives:
5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .---
..- --. .- - .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives:<br>
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives:
5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
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