<div dir="ltr">Steve,<div>Players in the top stakes tend to pay for their seats by the hour. At the stakes I (and, I presume, Dave) play at, the house rakes the hands - at a variable rate, usually with a cap of something like $5 per pot, and maybe a few more bucks into a jackpot/promotion pool. At the lowest stake that rake is significant, and should noticeably impact how you play. But at middle or upper stakes, it doesn't affect much. </div><div><br></div><div>Dealers make most of their money off of tips. Standard tips in the games I play is $1 a hand, and if it's a very big pot some players will tip $5 or more. A good dealer can average 20-30 hands an hour. At the bigger games, where there aren't small chips on the table, it wouldn't be unusual for all the players to just give the dealers a set amount when they start at the table. (This is cash games. Poker tournaments would be a whole different discussion.) </div><div><br></div><div> Professional players (and serious amateurs) simply think about having an edge that - after you account for the variance - produces an hourly rate. This is usually expressed in terms of big blinds per hour (or big blinds per 100 hands, if you are an online player). 5 big blinds an hour is a good edge in live play, and it can go up from here. More than 10 would be extremely dominant. So, if you are a good player at the $2/$5 ante level, you can probably make $25-40 an hour (i.e., you have a 5-8 bb per hour edge). </div><div><br></div><div>Because the house and the dealers and the players make money as long as the game continues, this is the one game in the casino where the house and the regular players are on the same team. Everyone just wants as many games as possible to keep going forever.
</div><div><br></div><div>
Exploitative play, and gaming your opponents can be very important, especially at lower levels. But if you vary too far from a fundamentally sound strategy to do that, and the table has 2 or 3 reasonable players, then while you are focused on maximizing profit from the drunk fish, the more fundamentally sound players will eventually get your money.
If you are at a Casino where it is easy to go from the table games and slots to the poker table, there can be a steady stream of bad players, but most poker rooms these days are off to the side where they are harder to stumble into, and if it is a full table (8-10 players), then you'll probably need to respect the play of at least 2 or 3 of them.</div><div><br></div><div>Casual players (drunk or otherwise) don't have any idea how to balance a range. Balance, in this context, refers to having the right ratio of bet-for-value hands to bluff hands. For example, if we are pre-flop, and there is a raise, and then another raise (called a 3-bet), and then another raise (4-bet), with almost any player at lower stakes you can be certain that the final raiser has a pair of queens or better (QQ, AK, KK, AA is under 3% of hands). So unless you have aces or kings, it should be an easy fold. With some players you can put them on exactly a pair of aces - they would have called or folded with anything literally else! --- A solid GTO player should be 4 betting something like 6-8% of the time, so that rate would suggest a solid player. --- If you have someone who's 4 betting 20% of the time, then they are WAY out of line, and should be easy to exploit (call or raise all, depending on how you expect them to respond, with a linear range of something like Jacks or better, which is about 6% of hands). 20% x 6% suggests you have a big pre-flop confrontation with the aggressor in just over 1% of hands. </div><div><br></div><div>The intuition and social-emotional game can affect the stuff above, because it affects the % of times your opponent makes certain moves in certain situations. Unless you have gotten someone acting crazy though, it shouldn't really affect how you play except in edge cases. If you have a hand that should mix calling vs. folding, and you are against a player who over-bluffs (statistically speaking), then you should strongly lean towards calling. Etc.. But most hands, in most situations will have a clear way they should be played, no matter who the opponent is (because doing otherwise would create too much risk of your being beaten badly by the people at the table who are half-decent). </div><div><br></div><div>Generally speaking, the pros at a given dollar value will have similar skill levels. If anyone wasn't in the right league, they'd lose money and have to drop down, and if they were seriously outclassing the other players, they would probably make more money at a higher stake, even though they would have less of an edge there. That assumes you are at a Casino with enough levels where there are enough levels that you have the option to move up or down. <br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br><div></div></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="mailto:echarles@american.edu" target="_blank"></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 5:51 PM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>DaveW-</p>
<p>Congratulations (or condolences) on your move to Vegas. Another
reference gave me the sense you might be at least *wintering*
there.</p>
<p>I probably would not be surprised (though shocked) by what
Casinos can ban. I didn't mean to suggest that they didn't have
the self-granted authority to ban cell phones, etc. but rather
doing so would severely impact their popularity among the hordes
of marks who happily come to give up their spare (or not so) cash
to feed the bright lights and other egregious displays of wealth.
<br>
</p>
<p>The Thomas Bass rendition of Farmer et alia foray into exploiting
manufacturing/wear biases in roulette wheels <a href="https://www.thomasbass.com/the_eudaemonic_pie_1360.htm" target="_blank">Eudamonic
Pie</a> suggests that today the same effort would be "trivial"
with nothing more perhaps than a cell phone camera/computer
observing from a shirt pocket. Of course, those biases have
long since been ameliorated one way or another I am sure. <br>
</p>
<p>You describe poker tables as the one place the house has no stake
in the game. I have to admit that i don't know who pays the
rent/real-estate on the table? Is there a flat-rate rake-off from
every pot? Does the dealer live on tips?</p>
<p>When the Native Casinos opened here, my elderDotter was turning
18 and she had a friend who thought she wanted to grow up to be a
blackjack dealer so they frequented the casino. I don't know that
my daughter lost/spent much money on it, but she never had any
illusions that she could "beat the house". I think their game
was blackjack which I understand has the built-in tiny but
positive bias to the house (the house wins all ties by
convention?). I told both daughters as they approached college
that I had saved enough for them to be able to go through a BS/BA
degree with only part-time/summer work contribution (or healthy
scholarship) on their part. I suggested that I cash it out and
take it to the casino and drop it all on red or black (Roulette)
with the understanding that their odds ware just a smidge short of
doubling their money vs losing it all (the one green slot
represents the house advantage?). The conceit was that if they
*won* they would then have enough cash to "coast" through college
as *many* of their peers seemed to be supported or else if they
*lost* they could forego any implied obligation of going to
college. They both honestly mulled it for at least 10 seconds
before they rolled their eyes and said "no way!". <br>
</p>
<p>I'm curious how you feel about my claim that the inter-personal
dynamic at the poker table is in some sense more important than
the technical skill? My point in your case would be that you
would be *at* a table where the technical skill level was roughly
even, right? Tournament play tends to support that, right? As
you advance, the skill level of your table-peers increases until
you either step up YOUR game or fail out of the game? <br>
</p>
<p>I think of you as having a strong mix of technical approach,
intuition, and likely to engage in the social-emotional game as
well (e.g. bluffing).</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div>On 11/8/21 9:42 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family:Arial">You would be surprised at what
casinos can ban. Maybe even more surprised at the, not
necessarily AI, software tools they use to analyze video feeds
and pounce on any kind of statistically improbabilities. Most
casinos in Vegas have tools, like mandatory side bets with very
low odds, that erase the near equal odds of blackjack.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">The only 'safe' gambling is poker
where the house has no direct interest in the outcome.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">As DES stated, winning is a matter
of patience and losing antes only, until you get good hand and
then skill of playing that hand for maximum return — playing
less worse than the others at the table.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">I am living in Vegas now and
playing small tournaments fairly regularly.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div>On Sun, Nov 7, 2021, at 7:23 PM, Steve Smith wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="gmail-m_8012643350582239786qt">
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 11/7/21 12:02 PM, David Eric
Smith wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">There
must be some kind of “Back to the future” movie that can be
made out of this. Doyne Farmer in Vegas all over again, but
with current-era AI in place of toe-operated computers. <br>
</blockquote>
<p>Yah! Surely Casinos can't begin to restrict
computers(phones)/earbuds, etc. on the gaming floor.<br>
</p>
<p>Strange coincidence that my sister went to Kindergarten with
Vance Packard (Norm's brother) in Silver City long before they
all became eagle scouts and then the Chaos Cabal. We moved
away the next year and I doubt I ever met any of them back
then. I came to LANL just before (I think) Doyne came... I
seem to remember that Norm was there for a summer... and soon
came the (in)famous CA conference... As I remember it the
game of interest (aside from Life, what with Conway in
attendance) was GO with a lot of speculation about the
implications of local vs global "intelligence"... I was
intrigued by HashLife and it's implications for finding
structure at many scales... I still hope for someone with more
follow-through than I have to implement a more redundant but
"thorough" space-time decomposition (an N-1xN-1 kernel over
the 4 positions at each "zoom" level).<br>
</p>
<p>Regarding poker.. I played some low-stakes in college and saw
there were two things to take in: the main technical skill
was to simply play less poorly than the other players at the
table and that was entirely overshadowed by the
social-engineering games of bluffing, etc. The very simple
game-theoretic aspect of not depleting your own stake before
you catch a "lucky streak" going your way was also a good
understanding. I played with my "boss" and a number of peers
at the time and realized that it was more about jockeying for
position at work and drinking beer than it was about
winning/losing. I think the most I ever lost/won was on the
order of $20-$40 which in those days was roughly 1-2 shifts
wages... a LOT if I joined them weekly... too rich for my
blood! I still feel that *technically* playing well really
means just playing less badly. Blackjack being even more
obviously so?<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yikes.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Nov 7, 2021, at 1:56 PM, Marcus
Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor">
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">My inclination would be
to invest in standoff biometrics (e.g. Eulerian
Video Amplification) and then find the best poker
playing code. It ought to be possible to
automate and perhaps get rich in the process.<br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <br>
</div>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div><b>From:</b><span> </span>Friam
<<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Eric
Charles<br>
</div>
<div> <b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Sunday,
November 7, 2021 7:42 AM<br>
</div>
<div> <b>To:</b><span> </span>The
Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div> <b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
[FRIAM] lurking<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I DID read all the
thread so far... but I'm curious how we got to
one of the starting points: "as cringy as it
may be for some dork to be proud of their
Poker prowess" <br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I am
somewhat satisfied with my Poker
mediocrity, certainly not proud of
it... but if I met someone who was
ACTUALLY startlingly better than I
am, and they were proud of that, I
wouldn't find it cringy. (Ditto in
my other hobbies, like Aikido.)<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I guess
if I met someone who had a slight
edge in their drunk-buddy home
games, and they were super proud
of THAT, then i would find it
cringy. (Ditto someone who's the
best Aikido student in their small
dojo, but who's obviously not more
than that.) <br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">When I
see academic work on game theory,
it's usually of lower quality than
what the good poker players are
doing these days. Mastering the
game is crazy hard, and being able
to sit down and implement a
coherent and winning strategy for
40-80 hours a week is not easy.
So... why would that be cringe? <br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Wed, Nov 3, 2021
at 1:42 PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Ok, part of the story is knowing what
is really needed for reproducibility as a
function of context.<br>
</div>
<div> With that, then there's the matter of
how much control is afforded. Is it
programmable in predictable ways?<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> -----Original Message-----<br>
</div>
<div> From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>
</div>
<div> Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 8:20
AM<br>
</div>
<div> To:<span> </span><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] lurking<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Yeah, I agree. But context is Queen.
When the virus is created in the lab, it's
done with real stuff distilled from the
soupy world. Given enough of a difference
in context, the robot may not be able to
re-constitute the life because the soupy
world surrounding the robot doesn't have
the real stuff required. Such drastic
context changes could be a result of
translation through space or time. E.g.
trying to construct, on Mars, an organism
read/serialized on earth. Or e.g. trying
to construct an organism read millennia
ago, millennia in the future. It's naive
to talk about "science" as if any given
read-out formula thereby expressed is
*complete*. Science is abstraction to a
large extent ... maybe not as abstracting
as math, of course. And science must
remain "open" precisely because any
formula it expresses is suspect, perhaps
incomplete.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> My favorite example is the magic
brewing stick:<span> </span><a href="https://medievalmeadandbeer.wordpress.com/2019/05/04/scandinavian-yeast-logs-yeast-rings/" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor" target="_blank">https://medievalmeadandbeer.wordpress.com/2019/05/04/scandinavian-yeast-logs-yeast-rings/</a><span> </span>It
*was* scientific to lay out the magic
stick as a critical element of the brewing
process, only to discover later that the
stick isn't the important part.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> On 11/2/21 2:39 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div> > Even if that were so, viruses
have been pulled from history or tweaked
and created in the lab. So we have a
design specification, and the means to
make it. One could imagine a robot
fabricating the close-to-the-metal machine
too. There is a story one can write down
how it is done. If there is no story, it
is not science we are talking about, it is
something else. <span> </span><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> --<span> </span><br>
</div>
<div> "Better to be slapped with the truth
than kissed with a lie."<br>
</div>
<div> <span>☤</span>>$
uǝlƃ<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
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<div> 5/2017 thru present<span> </span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,LsKAo_HeNNvVn8e0cDxtHSeLoR3npW-8RPv-a1uTz8vlkpY2g2ckzynNVrsHBLDwefpJafaKIGFZoge5o85zAT3C5I3LbGDSN7M2EA8NsSwMyPY8YbRj&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
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<div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <span> </span><a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div><span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;float:none;display:inline"><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><span style="font-size:12px">.-- .- -.
- / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -.
.--- ..- --. .- - .</span></span></span><br>
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<div> <span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;float:none;display:inline"><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><span style="font-size:12px">FRIAM
Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span></span><br>
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<div> <span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;float:none;display:inline"><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><span style="font-size:12px">Zoom
Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 </span></span></span><a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
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<div> <span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;float:none;display:inline"><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><span style="font-size:12px">un/subscribe<span> </span></span></span></span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,_BlHnyrN4CBEuprXVVy7f_mq3Z-tTWnNTUoEVL2wFjffa3W39HZm7739L-ersuH4jGwn4lOKTAQ0a8LW3Rpg5oX0xA-uGCnMO6QYqE4KE3dZO3-wLhX5WWwF7A4,&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,_BlHnyrN4CBEuprXVVy7f_mq3Z-tTWnNTUoEVL2wFjffa3W39HZm7739L-ersuH4jGwn4lOKTAQ0a8LW3Rpg5oX0xA-uGCnMO6QYqE4KE3dZO3-wLhX5WWwF7A4,&typo=1</a><br>
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<div> <span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;float:none;display:inline"><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><span style="font-size:12px">FRIAM-COMIC<span> </span></span></span></span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,t2v4djJabF5YoxHP9TWOogbl_lizkTlBDrWNSYFDyFQc2oEqq-ghR0tsH7hnRt9tZjI3-MOOrEuLks0GJ9lideLCkCUiGBWRpBsaKIPTaH5r1tdRiQGZ4_qgkg,,&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,t2v4djJabF5YoxHP9TWOogbl_lizkTlBDrWNSYFDyFQc2oEqq-ghR0tsH7hnRt9tZjI3-MOOrEuLks0GJ9lideLCkCUiGBWRpBsaKIPTaH5r1tdRiQGZ4_qgkg,,&typo=1</a><br>
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<div> <span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;float:none;display:inline"><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><span style="font-size:12px">archives:</span></span></span><br>
</div>
<div> <span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;float:none;display:inline"><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><span style="font-size:12px">5/2017
thru present<span> </span></span></span></span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,1HwvCHzBMHc9q8dL9FwTD6thlBDdmw7i9bSUZebmdoy7AlNV8bl5Inpn6PlDWdxaOG1_3wNax5YCtb2P3_Ct_dVSvtqcKX0fU7ehAs56Y-D2MA,,&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,1HwvCHzBMHc9q8dL9FwTD6thlBDdmw7i9bSUZebmdoy7AlNV8bl5Inpn6PlDWdxaOG1_3wNax5YCtb2P3_Ct_dVSvtqcKX0fU7ehAs56Y-D2MA,,&typo=1</a><br>
</div>
<div> <span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;float:none;display:inline"><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><span style="font-size:12px">1/2003
thru 6/2021 </span></span></span><a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" style="color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<pre>.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe</a> <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives:
5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .---
..- --. .- - .<br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
</div>
<div>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
</div>
<div>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div>archives:<br>
</div>
<div>5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div>1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe</a> <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives:
5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives:<br>
5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote></div>