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<p>As an erstwhile tennis player, I have to say "spin matters"...
when the ball comes over the net and I set my feet and body to
return it, swing my racket with optimal trajectory to intercept
it, all that would seem to matter is "Is my perception of the
trajectory of the ball true, and will my racket intercept it in
the 'sweet spot' such that I can return it well?" Up to the
*spin* on the ball, all that "truth of trajectory" is accurate.
Frank may note that the spin on the ball *on the bounce* is more
important than the spin when it hits my racket, which just changes
the calculus of the "truth of the trajectory" to "pre bounce", but
still holds.</p>
<p>When Nick offers these "factoids" about China's behaviour,
posture, claims, which Epoch Times or DJT might have relayed as
well, I would claim that they have a "spin" on them which is
either detectible in the flight of the ball (aerodynamics) or it's
bounce, but ultimately on how it responds to my racket when I try
to return (or perhaps just deflect or capture it?). Observing
DJT/Epoch/NST's racket action as the ball leaves gives me some
good hints about spin, as well as aerodynamic flight, bounce,
etc. Also knowing NST/AlanWakim/GEPR/DJT's history with various
shots they may make gives me some hints as to whether the
arm/wrist/racket flourish was actually the spin I percieved or
some other spin I might be spoofed into expecting.</p>
<p>So I guess the point is more "Partial Truth". Nick's list of
factoids might be arguable, and the context in which they are
offered might also be arguable, but more important to me is "what
is the thesis, and what is the intent?". DJT and Wakim are likely
to be trying to generate a certain kind of fear/judgement that
they then can use to further one or more facets of an agenda we
don't trust and perhaps implicitly fear. NST is more likely (my
judgement/guess) to be honest in any fear-mongering/awfulizing I
might attribute to him... he truly is worried that the Red Scare
monster stories of his youth are in fact real and coming true
(perhaps DJT and Wakim have some real fear going on as well).
GEPR (in my experience) is more likely "just" stirring the pot,
trying to get a more interesting conversation going, and if he has
an agenda to try to convince us of something with those volleys
across the net, that agenda is somewhat contingent and episodic?
and likely to defer to a larger agenda which might well have a
strong component of curiosity and playfulness in pursuit of that
curiosity, even if the balls sting when they smack you (maybe
racketball is more the correct target domain?).</p>
<p>So... back to Nick... Are you steelmanning or strawmanning
China/Xi/CCP/etc or is there a tin/copper/bronze/steelman you
could offer that isn't Red Scare all the way down? <br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p>"Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to
get you" <br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm not trying to claim that there is nothing to be askeered of
from China, but rather more that what we are likely to flinch away
from on the face of their statements and actions may well not be
the most useful thing to prioritize, and may be a ploy to make us
flinch while they put something entirely different past us.</p>
<p>Also in the spirit of Jijitsu or Aikido, it makes a bit more
sense to understand what one's opponent is *actually*
intending/doing/capable of and responding to that more as a
"dance" than a confrontation. I'm interested in how we (western
civ?) can "dance" with the East (far and near) rather than how we
can dominate or beat them down. The world is too small (IMO) to
make it into a cage-fight rink (or ThunderDome) if we have the
opportunity to turn it more into a dance hall or better yet an
extended EcoSystem in which humans are (for better or worse)
dominant elements.</p>
<p>gRumble,</p>
<p> - Steve<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/12/21 10:09 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:057301d7d7e8$1ebd35a0$5c37a0e0$@gmail.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Well trolled! It’s time for me to turn of
the news for a while. I am even closer to hysteria than
usual. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I want to say it shouldn’t MATTER who said
it; it should only matter whether it’s true or not. It’s the
“true,<a
href="https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/this-website-works-better-in-microsoft-edge-160fa918-d581-4932-9e4e-1075c4713595?ui=en-us&rs=en-us&ad=us"
moz-do-not-send="true"> shmoo</a>!” move that drives me
crazy. I concede that complexity thinking should turn us all
into hopeless dyonesians, but I will not have it!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">N<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof
David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 12, 2021 9:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in
ethological studies of bird flocks<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nothing
you say below or said in the original post is false. All
are true. Trump could not have written what you wrote, he
lacks the literacy as well as the ability to avoid
"hyperisms" in his speech.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">However
... each of your points about the Chinese in both posts
have been stated by Trump; albeit in his distorted/garbled
playground bully vernacular.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The Epoch
Times is a Falun Gong mouthpiece with a huge anti-China
bias. Nevertheless it has/does publish essays and news
pieces that also state, just as eloquently as do you, the
same points and warnings about what China is doing and
why.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">What I am
teasing you (trolling with a huge smile on my face because
I think the world of you) about — via the ad hominen — is
the fact that "truth" (non-falsity) of the statements made
are somehow made dependent on the identity of the
messenger. When Trump or the Epoch Times makes the
statements they are racist cant, but when Nick states
them, they are wisdom to paid attention to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 10:11 PM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;overflow-wrap:break-word"
id="qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">So, ad hominem aside, which of the
assertions I made are false. Is Hong Kong not being
digested as we speak? Is pressure not increasing on the
Taiwanese? Are islands not being built and fortified in
the international waters around China? Are the Uighurs
not being confined in work camps? Are the Chinese not
massively deploying surveillance technology? Look, I
don’t hold it against the Chinese. Given our behavior in
the last decade, I think a very good case can be made for
the superiority of authoritarian rule in the avoidance of
economic and social chaos. If democracies are capable of
producing Hitlers and Trumps and the current Turkish and
Hungarian leaders, which exactly IS their special call on
our loyalty. Could that loyalty just be so much romantic
twaddle. The democratical citizens of Athens murdered an
entire defenseless city of their fellow Greeks—put them to
the sword, I believe is how Thucydides put it. I don’t
happen to agree with the argument, but I don’t have to
think of the Chinese as some hideous yellow peril to
believe that they sincerely believe it. I just have to
think that they are expanding, as we did after the cold
war, into a vacuum left by our own sudden ambivalence
concerning our own values. I don’t believe that Trump
could have written the above, but even if he could, a
stopped clock has to be right two times a day (or only
once, if it is a twenty four our clock.) <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">I would love to believe that I am
wrong about any of this. Democracies are caving all over
the world and I think it’s fair to say that a majority of
americans have given up on the idea as well. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">The one thing I am desperately
naïve about and that complexity denies is that it is
valuable to think ahead, to plan, to share plans with
fellow citizens, and to follow some fair rules for
arriving at a consensus, being ever vigilant for the
perils of mob psychology and group think, before taking
action. All of that is in peril, right now, and when the
history is written it will have been us that let it
happen. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">N<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November
11, 2021 9:39 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of
bird flocks<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nick,
get out your dagger repellent you Trumpist you!</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I
have heard, almost verbatim, your entire paragraph
from the mouth of the Donald, and seen the exact
same notions discussed, ad nauseam, in Glen's
favorite newspaper, <i>The Epoch Times.</i> [Don't
shoot me glen, it is a joke.]</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 11:57
AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;overflow-wrap:break-word"
id="qt-qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11">Steve,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11">Well, I may be the victim
of recent “neo- (aka archeo-) liberal” pod casts, but
I really get the impression that the Chinese are going
for it, boasting a Chinese Exceptionalism every bit as
toxic as the one we have espoused. From their point
of view, this moment in history is the analogue of our
moment after WW two. They are ready to move ahead and
there is nobody “out there” with the organization or
resources to oppose them. Why would they not take the
opportunity? The age of sino-hegemony is upon us. We
either pull our socks up politically or settle down to
be the new Yugoslavia. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
November 11, 2021 11:58 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in
ethological studies of bird flocks<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Nick -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I asked this because the style of your statement felt
like it had the flavor of Cold War Rhetoric which I
was (also) raised on. I (want to) think something
more sophisticated (and interesting) is afoot today
and that while I don't want to fall into the
low-entropy stylization implied by this CCP Spectre, I
*do* want to believe (or seek) something good that the
CCP "great experiment" might have found while we were
on our NeoLiberal hyperCapitalism "great
experiment". Is there room to learn something
(humanist/humanitarian) from them? I believe
StephenG's familiarity with China in modern times (as
well as others) may offer us some parallax?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>- Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11">On 11/11/21 10:42 AM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11">Steve,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11">No. You are right on
target for the thread. My understanding of the
present Government is that it is absolutely
convinced that the centralist, technological,
authoritarian model of government superior to other
models and that this is their time to demonstrate
that superiority. I can really imagine some CCP
leaders reading this research and thinking,
“mmmmmmmmm! THAT’S interesting. In my back yard,
back in the sixties, there was a teensy little CIA
research station figuring out how to get animals
–dogs, ravens, pigeons, donkeys, what-have-you, to
carry bombs for them, using a combination of
training and neural implants. When the gave up the
project, they left behind two gigantic glass carboys
filled with pickled dogs heads. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:Algerian">The Shadow Knows</span></span>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><b>From:</b> Friam <a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
November 11, 2021 11:22 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in
ethological studies of bird flocks<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal11"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Nick -<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>Chinese science moves ahead in the development of
the ideal society.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>I don't mean to be flip in my question, but have to
ask if you are being flip in this statement? Can
you say more about what you think the Chinese
gov't/people/culture might be "trying" to do, either
overtly, or implicitly by simply following their
individual goals/interests/desires? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I believe that the collective dynamics between
Nations/Peoples are what is dominating the
movement/evolution of humanity (cultural, not
genetic) and that it is like an N-body problem in
complexity and subtlety but is effected primarily
through network relations. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Like Gene Expression Networks, I believe that the
more important "memes" (I think this is a useful but
risky metaphorical binding that Dawkins coined for
us most of a career (for me) ago) are those that are
_regulatory_ which is why the likes of Trump and
Bannon and Stone and the whole cabal of
supervillians we are coping with these days focus on
things like "fake news!" and "big lie!", etc. In
the spirit of McLuhan, "the medium IS the message",
the medium itself becomes the _thing to manipulate_
like trying to disrupt the news credibility and the
election process as well as becoming the definition
of a tweetHole, and using Facebook to disseminate
dysInfo etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I know this is an acute threadbend, you were trying
to talk about birds and flocking and experimental
techniques for studying same... if you do feel
inclined to answer, it is probably best to rethread.<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><a
href="https://jin.imrpress.com/article/2020/1757-448X/1757-448X-19-3-443.shtml"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://jin.imrpress.com/article/2020/1757-448X/1757-448X-19-3-443.shtml</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>If the robo-pigeon is a dominant member of the
flock, you can make the flock do loop-di-loops by
commanding the robo-pigeon to loop. If
subordinate, the loop-di-looping behavior of the
robopigeon has no effect on the flock. A
robo-pigeon is one with a brain implant and
pigeons are operated on AFTER their dominance in
the flock has been determined.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I hope I have this all right. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives:
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</pre>
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