<div dir="auto">I would say yes.<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 8:49 PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div dir="auto">
<br>
Can’t the delay be in arbitrarily-small discretized units (e.g. picoseconds) if needed?<br>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Nov 28, 2021, at 7:15 PM, Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="auto">By the way an example of a cycle with no delay, unless time isn't continuous, is a pair of ladders leaning against each other so that neither falls.  That violates assumptions of our causal discovery algorithms.<br>
<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:57 PM Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">An element of a (very short) cycle.  Note that there has to be a delay.<br>
<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:44 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Frank, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In your lingo, what is an effect called that feeds back on its cause?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 28, 2021 7:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, for example.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM<u></u><u></u></p>
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</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 6:06 PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I guess you mean A(t=0)->B(t=1), B(t=1)->A(t=2), not B(t=1)->A(t=0)<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I did a number of experiments in the use of causal learning methods to infer genetic regulatory networks using actual and simulated data.  Those networks have loops of a variety of lengths.  References available upon request.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 4:41 PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">I just don't see how that is a "loop" except that repeated application of such a matrix could lead to oscillation.    It sounded like somehow causality was violated and not just obscured.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of ? glen<br>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:38 PM<br>
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation<br>
<br>
Right, high dimension. More important than the matrix being large is that it has non-zero cross terms.<br>
<br>
On November 28, 2021 8:42:37 AM PST, Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>The operators are large (in the sense of a matrix) whether or not they are intended to be?<br>
><br>
>> On Nov 28, 2021, at 6:20 AM, <span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">
⛧</span> glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>> Any of the evolutionary operators across scales, from energy exchange at the finest to ecosystem reengineering at the coarsest.<br>
>> <br>
>>> On November 27, 2021 7:33:15 AM PST, Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> I’ve heard these words from you Glen, but I have no idea what these loops are or what you might be talking about.<br>
>>> <br>
-- <br>
glen <span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">⛧</span><br>
<br>
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