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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoPlainText>Glen.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I think I disagree with: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=quotation>They can't, by definition. If some effect *looks* like an epiphenomenon to you, it's because *you* imputed your model onto it. It's a clear cut case of reification.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Just because it is your flashlight that illuminates an object does not mean that the structure is not a real property of the object. It goes with out saying that all structures are revealed by points of view. The game is discovering structures that endure across points of view. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>n<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 11:05 AM<br>To: friam@redfish.com<br>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation</p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Yes, that's the point. Thanks for stating it in yet another way. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>The word "epiphenomenon" is loaded with expectation/intention. It works quite well in artificial systems where we can simply assume it was designed for a purpose. But in "natural" systems (like the hyena case), if we use that concept, we've imputed a *model* onto the system.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I would go even further (encroaching on Marcus' example) and argue that even if someone *else* designed a system, you cannot reverse engineer that designer's intention from the system they built. The agnostic approach is to treat every system you did not build yourself, with your own hands, as a naturally occurring system. (This is the essence of hacking, including benign forms like circuit bending.) I would ... I want to ... but I can't take that further step without a preliminary understanding that "wild type" systems don't exhibit epiphenomena at all. They can't, by definition. If some effect *looks* like an epiphenomenon to you, it's because *you* imputed your model onto it. It's a clear cut case of reification.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>On 11/29/21 8:49 AM, Steve Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> glen wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> ... Purposefully designed systems have bugs (i.e. epiphenomena, unintended, side-, additional, secondary, effects). Biological evolution does not. There is no bug-feature distinction there.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> In trying to normalize your terms/conceptions to my own, am I right that you are implying that intentionality is required for epiphenomena (reduces to tautology if "unintended" is key to "epi")?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> This leads us back to the teleological debate I suppose. The common (vulgar?) "evolution" talk is laced with teleological implications... but I think what Glen is saying here that outside the domain of human/sentient will/intentionality (which he might also call an illusion), everything simply *is what it is* so anything *we* might identify as epiphenomena is simply a natural consequence *we* failed to predict and/or which does not fit *our* intention/expectation.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> We watch a rock balanced at the edge of a cliff begin to shift after a <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> rain and before our very eyes, we see it tumble off the cliff edge and roll/slide/skid toward the bottom of the gradient but being humans, with intentions and preferences and ideas, *we* notice there is a human made structure (say a cabin) at the bottom of the cliff and we begin to take odds on how likely that rock is to slip/slide/roll into the cabin. *we* give that event meaning that it does not have outside of our mind/system-of-values. The rock doesn't care that it came to final rest (or not) because the cabin structure in it's (final) path was robust enough to absorb/reflect the remaining kinetic energy in the rock-system and the cabin doesn't care either! We (because we are in the cabin, because we built the cabin, because we are paying a mortgage to the bank on the cabin, because we intend to inhabit the cabin, because we can imagine inhabiting the cabin before/during/after the collisions) put a lot of meaning and import into that rock coming to rest against/on-top-of/beyond the cabin, but the rock and the cabin *don't care*. If instead of crushing the cabin, the rock grazes it on the side where there was a dilapidated porch you intended to demolish, carrying it away and crumbling it's bits to compostable splinters in the ravine *below* the cabin out of your site, you might want to refer to the epiphenomenal nature of rolling stones as clever demolition and removal crews?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> I'm probably just muddying the water (at the bottom of the ravine, now filled with cabin-deck bits).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>--<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif'>☤</span>>$ uǝlƃ<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>archives:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>