<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol";
panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text Char";
margin:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
span.PlainTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Plain Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text";
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoPlainText>Glen,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Please forgive larding below: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 12:52 PM<br>To: friam@redfish.com<br>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation</p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Well, as Marcus just argued, hacking comes in different forms, including both the call scammer butchering and the refined (limited cross terms) covert ops.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>My only beef in this conversation is the implicit intelligence, intention, and purpose in Nick's incessant use of "epiphenomenon". The 1st and 2nd paragraphs of Nick's trolling text were well composed, nothing with which to disagree. It was the 3rd that triggered me (making me wonder if I understood the 1st 2). Therein, he said "We will argue for a definition of an epiphenomenon as a consequence of a structure’s (or behavior’s) design which has played no <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><b><i>[NST===>Ach! I always get in trouble for overstating my cases: whistling in the dark, it is. Obviously, every cause feeds back on its effects to SOME degree. So, would you accept “played little role in”? If so, my apologies. <===nst] </i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>part the development of that structure (or behavior)." Every consequence plays a part in the development of the structure. That's, to some extent, what we *mean* by "consequence".<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><span style='color:black'>[NST===>I like the idea that we limite the idea of consequence in this way, but I don’t think it will fly out there in the world. <===nst] </span></i></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I'd be fine if, for example, our chosen measure was that some outcomes (and their generating machinery) dissipate through the iterations. Some dissipate faster than others. We could talk about the half-life of a given consequential pattern. And if the half-life was short, we could call that a less primary effect than those with large half-lives, perhaps even so drastically less as to call it "ancillary" or some other such word.<b><i>[NST===>I totally agree with all of this, and that makes me think that many of my disagreements with Glen arise from my rhetoric, my asserting greater confidence than I actually feel. As I say, Whistling in the Dark. <===nst] </i></b> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Re: pan-psychism - Sure. The foundations for it that make the most sense to me look like mutual information. And that, also, comes in scales, not atomic categories. While a pure element crystal, like a brick of titanium, may have minimal content, it's still on the scale. 0 need not be categorically different from ε → 0. Maybe it *is*. But whoever argues that point bears the burden of doing that arguing. If epiphenomena are the most secondary of phenomena, then whoever makes that argument bears the burden of the arguing. Otherwise, all phenomena may well be primary, especially under translation to other scaled measures.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><span style='color:black'>[NST===>Do we need ranked choice voting to determine which effects are primary? <===nst] </span></i></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>On 11/29/21 10:13 AM, Steve Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Glen -<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> I appreciate your vernacular distinction between "hack" and "crack". I'm of an age/generation that "hack" still carries over/undertones of things like "wood butcher" (someone whose carpentry skills/style is anything but subtle), but am habituated to recognizing it as a generally positive (or at least playful) mode.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> In the early days of the internet (public version ca 1992), I had a student intern from NYU's Tisch School of Design who came to the world of computers/internet from very much an art-design perspective where they had their own conceptions of adaptive use of design elements and tools. He used the term "bash around" in a similar mode to the modern "hack around" with the sense of seeking those potential exploits with an implicit willingness to risk breaking something in the process. In his case, he seemed to have a healthy appreciation for the robustness of computer-systems in contrast to others not-very-computer-savvy who might be afraid to touch the keyboard for fear they would break something.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> This activity-style takes me back to the "wood butcher" vs the "fine skilled carpenter"... I have known nominal "wood butchers" whose final work was highly refined by a certain aesthetic *and* involved a visceral understanding of the qualities of the materials in use, *derived* by *hacking around* vs the often more book-larned style of some carvers/carpenters whose understanding of the materials and tools might be a bit less self-discovered.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> I think your use of the term "exploit"" here adds to the teleological divide in these conversations... or more to the point exposes it (yet) more. I'm comfortable in everyday discourse with this divide.... humans exhibit/experience all sorts of illusions of "free-will" even if our metaphysics might insist that such things ARE illusions. I even find it useful (at least convenient) to speak of the intentions of the inanimate world (e.g. the rock rolling down the cliff crushing the cabin with/without anyone in it or nearby to care) sometimes, but as with your regular warnings about excess meaning with metaphorical thinking, I recognize that it is risky business to *speak* of intentions where there is no evidence there actually is any.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Which I *think* offers us the opportunity of the same treatment of this subject *through* a pan psychism lens? Though we may not want to open up that complementary can-o-worms.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> - Steve<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> I argue, No. The point of hacking has nothing to do with bugs. It has to do with exploits. You can exploit either a purposefully designed in feature *or* an accidentally built in bug.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> We can put sensitivity analysis and stress testing on a spectrum *with* hacking. Penetration testing is on that spectrum, bridging between hacking and using the device as intended.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> As for the word, itself, I tend to use "hack" to mean anything *playful* and "crack" as the exploitation for personal gain. So while a white hat hacker tries to find exploits, a black hat "hacker" tries to crack the device for exploit/profit.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> But to each her own. It's not the word that's important. It's the concept and the behavior.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> On 11/29/21 9:19 AM, Steve Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>>> Isn't the *point* of hacking to discover ways to use "bugs" of an intentionally designed system *as* "features", often in combination with other bugs/features? Maybe *I* impute too much into the idea of "hacking"? (does one impute *into* or *onto* BTW?)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>>> I admit, when I follow clickbait with "hack" in the title sometimes the target of the hack is a system *not* designed/built by humans with intentions which the "hack" is overcoming/circumventing/re-tasking... but I don't think of that as a "hack" as much as "thoughtful understanding". The vernacular use of "hack" seems overly broad to me.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>>> I suppose the character of Sherlock Holmes is characterized by the overlap of these two abilities (encyclopedic knowledge of human-built and natural systems, along with an acute analytic ability to deduce and infer and and a similar acute ability to synthesize disparate elements of those systems to achieve a specific purpose)? Though I suppose the latter is more in the domain of the Archetype "McGuyver", leaving Sherlock more to the domain of engineering *humans* to admit to or demonstrate their culpability in something or another. McGuyver seems to be intent on breaking or remaking things to fulfill his own current desire.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-- <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif'>☤</span>>$ uǝlƃ<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>archives:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>