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<p>All of this discussion seems to be framed conveniently (for
CS/modeling types) as Sequential Dynamical Systems:</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_dynamical_system">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_dynamical_system</a><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/28/21 8:49 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:47978D37-268C-4EC7-AC98-808AF90353BE@snoutfarm.com">
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<br>
Can’t the delay be in arbitrarily-small discretized units (e.g.
picoseconds) if needed?<br>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Nov 28, 2021, at 7:15 PM, Frank
Wimberly <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"><wimberly3@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="auto">By the way an example of a cycle with no
delay, unless time isn't continuous, is a pair of ladders
leaning against each other so that neither falls. That
violates assumptions of our causal discovery algorithms.<br>
<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:57
PM Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">An element of a (very short) cycle. Note
that there has to be a delay.<br>
<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 28, 2021,
7:44 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple"
style="word-wrap:break-word" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Frank, </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In your lingo, what is an
effect called that feeds back on its cause?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 28, 2021 7:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] The
epiphenomenality relation</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, for example.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Nov 28, 2021,
6:06 PM Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I guess you mean
A(t=0)->B(t=1), B(t=1)->A(t=2),
not B(t=1)->A(t=0)</p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 28, 2021
3:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] The
epiphenomenality relation</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I did a number of
experiments in the use of causal
learning methods to infer genetic
regulatory networks using actual and
simulated data. Those networks have
loops of a variety of lengths.
References available upon request.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Nov 28,
2021, 4:41 PM Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">I just don't see
how that is a "loop" except that
repeated application of such a
matrix could lead to oscillation.
It sounded like somehow causality
was violated and not just obscured.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of ? glen<br>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:38
PM<br>
To: The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The
epiphenomenality relation<br>
<br>
Right, high dimension. More
important than the matrix being
large is that it has non-zero cross
terms.<br>
<br>
On November 28, 2021 8:42:37 AM PST,
Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>The operators are large (in the
sense of a matrix) whether or not
they are intended to be?<br>
><br>
>> On Nov 28, 2021, at 6:20
AM, <span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Symbol",sans-serif">
⛧</span> glen <<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>> Any of the evolutionary
operators across scales, from energy
exchange at the finest to ecosystem
reengineering at the coarsest.<br>
>> <br>
>>> On November 27, 2021
7:33:15 AM PST, Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>>> I’ve heard these words
from you Glen, but I have no idea
what these loops are or what you
might be talking about.<br>
>>> <br>
-- <br>
glen <span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Symbol",sans-serif">⛧</span><br>
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