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<p>A couple of things as yet not obviously (to me) introduced into
this discussion:</p>
<blockquote>1) Survival of the Fittest might better be Legacy
Survival of the Fittest. Evolution depends on successful
*reproduction* and in fact, a string of successful reproductions.
I have a number of childless friends who came from parents with
large families... but who only had 2 or fewer siblings themselves
and have few if any nieces and nephews. Their grandparent's
"fecundity" has officially petered out. I'm not saying this is a
good nor a bad thing, just a break in the "survival of the
fittest" and an illustration that simply being good at spawning
lots of children isn't enough... they have to survive and then
reproduce themselves, rinse, repeat. <br>
<br>
2) Heredity/Evolotion 101 in college made the point that the
"selfish" gene for men suggests that one's nieces and nephews by a
maternal sister are (closer to) guaranteed to share 1/4 of his
genes than the (best case) 1/2 for his own (presumed) children
(worst case 0%). The same (almost) logic applies to women who
are childless (for whatever reason)... their sister's children are
a genetic legacy for them. Entirely anecdotally, many of the
(childless) gay men and women I know are pretty good aunts and
uncles... (though this can be explained many ways).<br>
<br>
3) And of course, the object of heredity has shifted from the Gene
to something much larger, more fuzzy, and perhaps (much) more
interesting? What *cultural* traits might be positively
correlated with being homosexual or more aptly ambi/bi/pan/poly
sexual? It is no longer exclusively the case that being gay
deals you out of being a parent (raising adopted children,
en-vivo, en-vitro fertilization, etc), so one's contribution can
be to a continued *cultural* or *memetic* legacy of a "way of
being" which is very Lamarckian.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/9/22 3:15 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:202201091015.209AFuP5061499@ame2.swcp.com">
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<div dir="auto">This topic is a minefield, because it is related
like the controversial "race" term to the personal identify.
Black people for instance score higher in 100m or 200m runs than
white people as the data clearly shows, which means their genes
somehow must give them more power for this particular
competition. Still all people belong to the same race. As you
know this topic is very controversial and precarious. For sex it
is similar.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">There are genes for the two major sex hormones,
estrogen for women and testosterone for men. Males have one X
and Y chromosome, females have two X chromosomes. Therefore
there are clearly genetic differences between men and women. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Just how girls who are subject to estrogen develop
an affection for boys is unclear. The same for boys who are
subject to testosterone in their development. My hypothesis is
that the mechanism works like "develop an affection for those
who look the same but different" during the time the sex
hormones start to work. Once they have a preference, addiction
mechanisms kick in which tell the individuals to do more of that
which they like. Something like that where the target of
affection is path dependent and not completely hardwired.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">In general I would say that homosexuality is a
byproduct of the mating process. This would explain why
homosexuality continues to exist in evolutionary systems
although these individuals have less or no offspring. Like coal
power plants which produce CO2 and nuclear power plants which
produce nuclear waste, the mating process produces losers who
lost for whatever reason in the competition for mates and have
no offspring. Among those some may pick a mate of the same sex,
because the sex drive is hard to ignore and not completely
hardwired.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">This is just my rough idea how it could work in
principle. It can be wrong and it is a delicate topic. There are
many books about the sociologal and psychological aspects of it.
In the library I usually ignore them because it is not a topic I
am especially interested in. Therefore my knowledge is
incomplete in this area, and someone else here can probably
explain it better. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">-J.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:#000000" align="left">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> </div>
<div>Date: 1/9/22 01:39 (GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a> </div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Well, first things first. Is there any
evidence for a genetic basis for homosexuality. You can, of
course, have a trait that it is chromosomally determined (if
not genetically so) and still not heritable. Sex, for
instance. Sex is not heritable. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My assumption has always been that
homosexuality might be influence by innate factors, but not be
heritable. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I haven’t read up on that subject for 2
decades. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anybody know any facts? </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">n</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus
Daniels<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 8, 2022 5:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> FriAM <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">It seems like such a
dumb question to ask. Why should any preference have a
genetic basis? How about look for a gene that encodes a
preference for plush carpeting or a preference for
Flamenco music? And what about those men that like short
women?! Maybe a man is kind of like a tall woman, on
average? And why would anyone expect that it would be
bimodal? If it were what would that tell us? One could
imagine homosexuality is just one manifestation of
cognitive or emotional flexibility. That by itself would
explain why it is enduring, because those properties would
give a person an advantage over less flexible people.
Some fraction of the people with that property have
heterosexual or bisexual relationships, and they reproduce
and raise children that thrive. The rigid (heterosexual)
types in comparison are prone to making the same kind of
mistakes over and over and their children suffer for it.</span></p>
</div>
<div style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center">
<hr width="98%" size="2" align="center"></div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="color:black"> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
on behalf of </span><span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI Symbol",sans-serif;color:black">⛧</span><span
style="color:black"> glen <<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 8, 2022 4:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> FriAM <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm in an ongoing argument with a gay
friend about how tortured Darwinian arguments are in
accounting for homosexuality. He claims they're VERY
torturous. I'm inclined toward the first mentioned here: <a
href="https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486</a><br>
<br>
But, were group selection and/or cultural evolution a
thing, then my friend would be more right. Anyone here
have a strong opinion?<br>
<br>
-- <br>
glen <span style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Symbol",sans-serif">⛧</span><br>
<br>
<br>
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