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<span style="color:rgb(32, 31, 30);font-family:Arial;font-size:15px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">Dave writes:</span></div>
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<span style="color:rgb(32, 31, 30);font-family:Arial;font-size:15px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">< There is a ton of interesting research on this topic that is generally ignored: by the christian right because it dares to mention
sex and sexuality, by the scientific community because it is not "scientific," and by the 'woke' because it challenges their narrative and offends their sensibilities. ></span><br>
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<div style=""><font color="#201f1e" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 15px;">I think people underestimate how much they are who they are just based on developmental, cultural considerations, and inertia. I claim that "I was born this way" is a defense
against the cultural attractor; thus, that it can become necessary for minorities to stick together with identity politics. To assert their freedom and say that their identity could be flexible is to threaten the safety of the group, and so the group polices
against that messaging.</span></font></div>
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<div style=""><font color="#201f1e" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 15px;">Marcus</span></font></div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> on behalf of Prof David West <profwest@fastmail.fm><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 10, 2022 9:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality</font>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">Buddhism (mostly the Theravada branch) recognizes four sexes: male, female, hermaphrodite, and anaphrodite. Hermaphrodite does not mandate dual sexual apparatus and the category includes: gays, transsexuals, cross-dressers, some
variations of bisexuals, and, most famously, the Thai kathoeys or "lady boys."<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">Kathoeys are fully recognized within Thai society. Although they are required to participate in the military draft lottery, they are officially exempt from service. You will find kathoeys working in almost every profession, openly
and without discrimination. Kathoey prostitutes are ubiquitous, especially in Bangkok and other tourist areas.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">Why are kathoeys kathoey? Not because of genes as is the wont in Western science, but because their body is simultaneously hosting both a male and female "spirit." (A deep exploration of the 4 Buddhist sex categories is needed
to fully explain this.) A kathoey has 'access' to both of the spirits in his (yes this is the accepted and proper pronoun) body.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">In a deeply spiritual culture like Thai Buddhist culture, a kathoey is therefore a very 'auspicious' and honored being.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">A close approximation to Kathoey is the Navajo concept of a Nádleehi. The Cheyenne also recognized an official social role — the berdache that is similar. (You saw one in the movie
<i>Little Big Man</i>). But a berdache is probably more of a response to the Cheyenne 7-year postpartum sex-with-a-woman taboo.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">There is a ton of interesting research on this topic that is generally ignored: by the christian right because it dares to mention sex and sexuality, by the scientific community because it is not "scientific," and by the 'woke'
because it challenges their narrative and offends their sensibilities.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">davew<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, at 7:56 AM, glen wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">> Right. I hope that's the case, not merely that some of us are more <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">> plastic, but that perhaps any of us could even practice being more <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">> plastic. But that's just hope ... hope can be debilitating.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">> On 1/10/22 07:50, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> I meant that some people are genetically set up to be more plastic and dynamic than others, and one way this manifests itself is in sexual preference. If one finds a genetic signature for homosexuality, it could just be the
deeper thing.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> *From:* Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> *Sent:* Monday, January 10, 2022 8:25 AM<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> *To:* <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> One of the themes I've seen talks about a slight correlation between the presence of homosexuality in a family with female fecundity (counter intuitive to those who talk about homosexuals having children). Another theme is
that it's largely epigenetic; I suppose a slightly deeper in mechanism than Jochen's hormonal proposition.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> Both of those appeal to my sense that evolution doesn't separate lineage from ontogeny. There's no crisp line between organism and family, no crisp line between families, species, generations, or anything else, which approaches
SteveS' third point. The selection is as "fractal" as the crinkly space in which it arises.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> I wish I were as libertarian as Marcus in this context, where we're all ideally plastic and dynamic. But my sense is not only that historicity and accumulation outstrip any plasticity, at least by our mid 30s or so, but also
that there's no place for will or intention in most feelings of orientation. It seems people often feel fated or even trapped by their orientation. If it's plastic at all, its trajectory is at least chaotic, not amenable to reverse engineering. But, as Jochen
points out, we're much less likely to engage in every speculation we could because it's such a sensitive topic.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> Thanks for all the ideas.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> On 1/9/22 08:30, Steve Smith wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>> A couple of things as yet not obviously (to me) introduced into this discussion:<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>> 1) Survival of the Fittest might better be Legacy Survival of the Fittest. Evolution depends on successful *reproduction* and in fact, a string of successful reproductions. I have a number of childless friends who came
from parents with large families... but who only had 2 or fewer siblings themselves and have few if any nieces and nephews. Their grandparent's "fecundity" has officially petered out. I'm not saying this is a good nor a bad thing, just a break in the "survival
of the fittest" and an illustration that simply being good at spawning lots of children isn't enough... they have to survive and then reproduce themselves, rinse, repeat.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>> 2) Heredity/Evolotion 101 in college made the point that the "selfish" gene for men suggests that one's nieces and nephews by a maternal sister are (closer to) guaranteed to share 1/4 of his genes than the (best case)
1/2 for his own (presumed) children (worst case 0%). The same (almost) logic applies to women who are childless (for whatever reason)... their sister's children are a genetic legacy for them. Entirely anecdotally, many of the (childless) gay men and women
I know are pretty good aunts and uncles... (though this can be explained many ways).<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>> 3) And of course, the object of heredity has shifted from the Gene to something much larger, more fuzzy, and perhaps (much) more interesting? What *cultural* traits might be positively correlated with being homosexual
or more aptly ambi/bi/pan/poly sexual? It is no longer exclusively the case that being gay deals you out of being a parent (raising adopted children, en-vivo, en-vitro fertilization, etc), so one's contribution can be to a continued *cultural* or *memetic*
legacy of a "way of being" which is very Lamarckian.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>> On 1/9/22 3:15 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> This topic is a minefield, because it is related like the controversial "race" term to the personal identify. Black people for instance score higher in 100m or 200m runs than white people as the data clearly shows, which
means their genes somehow must give them more power for this particular competition. Still all people belong to the same race. As you know this topic is very controversial and precarious. For sex it is similar.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> There are genes for the two major sex hormones, estrogen for women and testosterone for men. Males have one X and Y chromosome, females have two X chromosomes. Therefore there are clearly genetic differences between men and
women.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> Just how girls who are subject to estrogen develop an affection for boys is unclear. The same for boys who are subject to testosterone in their development. My hypothesis is that the mechanism works like "develop an affection
for those who look the same but different" during the time the sex hormones start to work. Once they have a preference, addiction mechanisms kick in which tell the individuals to do more of that which they like. Something like that where the target of affection
is path dependent and not completely hardwired.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> In general I would say that homosexuality is a byproduct of the mating process. This would explain why homosexuality continues to exist in evolutionary systems although these individuals have less or no offspring. Like coal
power plants which produce CO2 and nuclear power plants which produce nuclear waste, the mating process produces losers who lost for whatever reason in the competition for mates and have no offspring. Among those some may pick a mate of the same sex, because
the sex drive is hard to ignore and not completely hardwired.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> This is just my rough idea how it could work in principle. It can be wrong and it is a delicate topic. There are many books about the sociologal and psychological aspects of it. In the library I usually ignore them because
it is not a topic I am especially interested in. Therefore my knowledge is incomplete in this area, and someone else here can probably explain it better.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> -J.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> -------- Original message --------<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> From: <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> Date: 1/9/22 01:39 (GMT+01:00)<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> Well, first things first. Is there any evidence for a genetic basis for homosexuality. You can, of course, have a trait that it is chromosomally determined (if not genetically so) and still not heritable. Sex, for instance.
Sex is not heritable.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> My assumption has always been that homosexuality might be influence by innate factors, but not be heritable.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> I haven’t read up on that subject for 2 decades.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> Anybody know any facts?<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> n<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> Nick Thompson<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> <a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> <a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a> <<a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a>> <<a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a>
<<a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> *From:* Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 8, 2022 5:57 PM<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> *To:* FriAM <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> It seems like such a dumb question to ask. Why should any preference have a genetic basis? How about look for a gene that encodes a preference for plush carpeting or a preference for Flamenco music? And what about those
men that like short women?! Maybe a man is kind of like a tall woman, on average? And why would anyone expect that it would be bimodal? If it were what would that tell us? One could imagine homosexuality is just one manifestation of cognitive or emotional
flexibility. That by itself would explain why it is enduring, because those properties would give a person an advantage over less flexible people. Some fraction of the people with that property have heterosexual or bisexual relationships, and they reproduce
and raise children that thrive. The rigid (heterosexual) types in comparison are prone to making the same kind of mistakes over and over and their children suffer for it.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> *From:*Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of ⛧glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 8, 2022 4:13 PM<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> *To:* FriAM <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> *Subject:* [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> I'm in an ongoing argument with a gay friend about how tortured Darwinian arguments are in accounting for homosexuality. He claims they're VERY torturous. I'm inclined toward the first mentioned here: <a href="https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486">https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486</a>
<<a href="https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486">https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486</a>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>> But, were group selection and/or cultural evolution a thing, then my friend would be more right. Anyone here have a strong opinion?<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>>>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> -- <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> glen<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> Theorem 3. There exists a double master function.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <<a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> archives:<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a> <<a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">>> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">> -- <br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">> glen<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">> Theorem 3. There exists a double master function.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial">> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .<br>
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