<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">with regard glen's criticisms:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The synonymy of layer and level. Neither word is really appropriate, even as metaphor; the real relationship being much more akin to dependency. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Mind consciousness is "dependent" on Manas Consciousness. Theoretically you could test this empirically by excising that portion of the brain that neuro-theologists claim gives rise to the perception of I-Thee / I-Not-I / I-Other. Meditation demonstrably reduces activity in that brain locus, so it is possible. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Mind Consciousness is "dependent" on Store Consciousness because the former (impelled by executing Manas Consciousness) is an "extract," a "subset" of the latter.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Store Consciousness is "dependent" on Sense Consciousness in a manner analogous to a battery's stored energy being dependent on the energy input from a trickle charger.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Both Manas and Sense Consciousness arise from physics-biology-neurology. Store Consciousness arises from Sense Consciousness. When AND'ed together, Manas and Store Consciousness give rise to Mind Consciousness<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">There is but one Store Consciousness and it is that of the Universe-As-A-Whole. What you perceive to be multiple Stores are merely multiple Minds.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">In a sense, 'awareness' is more primitive than consciousness. Store Consciousness is the Universe directly perceiving Itself. The best "explanation" or Speculative Philosophy about how this is-as-it-is can be found in Whitehead's discussion of God (<i>Process and Reality</i>) as both primordial and consequent. At least for me. The primordial God is NOT conscious, but the consequent God IS conscious. For Whitehead, awareness (perception) is primitive (primordial) while consciousness is derivative.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I hope this adds some clarity.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, at 1:49 PM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> I can't add to the content like Dave has. But I can render my <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> perspective on the words in this article. Because I am nothing but a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> critic, my perspective is critical. The first criticism is the synonymy <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> between "layer" and "level", of which I've complained before. Even if, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> when he says "level", he means to imply something higher order like <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> "layer", we (us dorks) need some sense of whether there's a hierarchy <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> implied by it ... and if so, is it a strict hierarchy. I thought he <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> might address this when he started talking about how the layers <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> interact. But I don't think he did. Any sense of testable composition <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> requires that.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> My second criticism is the implicit difference between awareness and <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> consciousness. Although it might seem like I'm arguing about words, I'm <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> wondering if this construct assumes awareness is more primitive than <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> consciousness? And this criticism, for me, is a placeholder for many <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> such worries I have about whether or not this conception has a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> corresponding *mechanism* ... or if it's simply a heuristic, meant not <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> to be take literally, but to be a useful fiction.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> If it's meant to be at least a little bit literal, then the first <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> constructive comment I might make is to install a little plurality. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> E.g. there's not merely a single, unitary "store", but many stores. I <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> see this in myself. When I'm surrounded by too many scientists yapping <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> in detail in their domain, my store depletes and I want to go hang out <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> with some metalheads, quaff some beer, and drown out the Mind. While <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> quaffing beer with the metalheads, my capacity for detailed thought is <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> replenished and I'm ready to hang out with those dorks again. And vice <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> versa in multifarious dimensions.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> And that wandering constellation of stores evokes a worry about "the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> self" or ego or whatever it is. It's more difficult to imagine a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> plurality of selves. But I think of it in terms of the parallelism <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> theorem, that even if I literally can't multitask, be more than one <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> self at a given time, I can swap between them at will, nearly instantly <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> ... caveat that there does seem to be a cost of swapping or an inertia <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> of some kind.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Otherwise, though, it was a good read. Thanks for linking it and the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> notification of his death.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> On 1/24/22 12:30, Prof David West wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Thich Nhat Hanh was Vietnamese and his teachings reflect the context of Theravada rather than Mahayana Buddhism and a pedant would notice differences and nuances that are important to scholarship, but not germane here.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> The four levels of consciousness is quite useful and accurate as it is. Some minor points of variance.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> -- The sense consciousness is not restricted to the five (six or seven) normally recognized senses, but the totality of our 'input nodes' which are very numerous and offer a near 1-to-1 mapping to all the output sources and human really can directly sense and send signals to the brain from a single photon or a single quantum collapse.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> -- The sense consciousness directly "feeds" the store consciousness and the store consciousness is a "reflection" of the Universe and an "expression" of the Universe. It is also singular, there is but one Store Consciousness - The Atman, to use Vedic terminology, or The Self.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> -- Mind Consciousness is an "extract" of Store Consciousness arising from the influence and action of Manas Consciousness. The compulsion to differentiate between Me and Thee (Me and That) "forces" an attempt to carve out a portion of the Store Consciousness and plant a flag of possession. Thence comes the atman, the self, or the ego-self.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> -- Manas Consciousness is traceable to a specific brain region that becomes 'active' some months after birth and allows an infant to recognize its body as separate and, eventually, the illusion that its Mind Consciousness is separate from Store Consciousness. Meditation lessens activation and may deactivate, temporarily, that area of the brain.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> What I think I learned on the topic.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> davewest<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> On Sun, Jan 23, 2022, at 11:08 AM, Steve Smith wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> /There is a Thich Nhat Hanh sized hole in the Universe/<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> begins my as-yet unwritten */Ode to Thich Nhat Hanh/ *who passed away at 95 <<a href="https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/thich-nhat-hanhs-health/thich-nhat-hanh-11-11-1926-01-22-2022/">https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/thich-nhat-hanhs-health/thich-nhat-hanh-11-11-1926-01-22-2022/</a>> yesterday.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> I would like to invite everyone's perspectives on his particular interpretation of Buddhism's particular take on the nature of consciousness:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> The Four Layers of Consciousness <<a href="https://uplift.love/thich-nhat-hanh-the-four-layers-of-consciousness/">https://uplift.love/thich-nhat-hanh-the-four-layers-of-consciousness/</a>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> given our never-ending discussions from a mostly different perspective:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> DaveW's studies of Eastern Philosophies. Glen's talk of diachronic vs episodic self. The general talk about Consciousness from a Western (esp. Pearcean) perspective here. Monism/Dualism. The HARD problem. etc.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -- <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> glen<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Theorem 3. 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