<div dir="ltr">I'm afraid I'm less eloquent than Steve. The Pigs are an issue with us and we are discussing with pipeline vendors what the pipeline OPEX should be. After all air is little bit less regulated than O&G. Straight pneumatic to pneumatic alone looks like big business for heavy industries. We will see. </div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 11:33 AM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Mike -</p>
<p>Thanks for weighing in. I do like the re-purposing or
up/downcycling of existing infrastructure as part of a transition
strategy. Any perspective you might have from a *systems* point
of view of how Breeze and pneumatic storage/transmission can help
improve the robustness and efficiency of multi-scale systems would
be great. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I was very shocked a few years ago when I learned about the
application of compressed air in mobile applications as well: I
didn't realize there was enough energy-density to be had. <br>
</p>
<p>
<a href="https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/air/compressed-air-vehicles-can-be-a-potential-mode-of-urban-transport-in-india-62987" target="_blank">https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/air/compressed-air-vehicles-can-be-a-potential-mode-of-urban-transport-in-india-62987</a></p>
<p>There is something kindof organic/serendipitous about being able
to harvest ambient energy gradients (fill your air tank in coolth
of the night or in the shade and expose it to sunlight/heat at the
time/point of use). <br>
</p>
<p>When I hit "send" on this message, I'm crawling back down my
well-house to repair a burst pipe and (re)evaluate the difficulty
of removing the pressure tank so that I can replace the
air-bladder in it. The Pneumo-Hydro hybrid of a well is there
primarily to reduce pump-cycling and pressure hammer in the piping
system but it is a good everyday example of hybrid systems. A
pressure tank is pretty cool serendipitous solution. I would
guess that submerged airbladders would complement hydro-storage
pretty well. </p>
<p>The Breeze literature fed my overly tangential mind with an image
of Tony HIllerman's novel Sinister Pig wherein pipelines crossing
the US/MX border might be used to move drugs in the "pigs"
designed to act as moving plugs to separate different
types/ownership of petroleum products. <br>
</p>
<p> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sinister_Pig" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sinister_Pig</a><br>
</p>
<p>I've been fascinated with hybrid mechanical/hydraulic/pneumatic
systems from an early age with a good friend even in the early 80s
running a boot repair business from an antique belt-driven set of
stations up and down the line in his shop from cutters to stichers
to sanders to buffers, etc. Of course all were driven from a
(single) electric motor, but any rotational mechanical energy was
fine (wind/water/animal/<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treadwheel_crane" target="_blank">human-driven</a>)
. It was all shafts, bushings, pulleys and idlers and (leather)
belts. It was very clever and relatively efficient (by some
measures) compared to a half-dozen or more stations, each driven
by it's own electric motor. Setting up a new station was pretty
easy with little more than sliding a pulley down a shaft and
fixing it with a set-screw. <br>
</p>
<p>I'd love to have my (mostly idle/defunct) blacksmith lean-to
running with such a shaft, an oversized airtank (that I can
differentially shade and expose to sun) and a small windmill
connected (belt-drive) to the human-powered, stationary
bicycle-style grinder I already use. The stone, when not
grinding becomes a flywheel for the system and the pedals a
human-input into it. Then comes the trip-hammer and the
bellows! Not in this lifetime. I'll be lucky to have water
pressure back in the house this week with my rate of project
progress!</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi. I'm a reader more than a contributor, but the
Hydrogen discussion is close to my day to day.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Many of us in renewables think Hydrogen might mostly be
kick the can as Steve mentioned. It is something that might
be economically feasible in the 2030s and so the length of
time oil companies sell oil increases. Having said that,
there are a number of very pricey Hydrogen projects getting
funded. That might be showing how profitable the O&G
industry is.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm working with a company we call <a href="http://www.breezesqueeze.com" target="_blank">Breeze</a>. It uses compressed air
in pipelines to move turbines at power plants. Without
fossil fuels or using water this is getting a lot of
attention. There are many advantages such as cold air where
compressed air is released that can be used by data
centers. 25% of all GHGs come from generating electricity.
45% of all water used in the US is used to create
electricity. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We see this as a better option than Hydrogen. We do
think Hydrogen fuel cells are a solution for mobile
applications. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mike Orshan</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 10:27
AM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 2/6/22 8:31 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> <a href="https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/" target="_blank">https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/</a><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote><i> </i><i><span style="color:rgb(33,37,41);font-family:Roboto,sans-serif;font-size:18px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">Low-cost
fossil fuel resources are finite. Someday it will
simply not be possible to burn oil, natural gas, and
coal for the affordable heat, electricity, and motive
power humans need to power their prosperous societies.<span>
</span></span></i><br>
<i><span style="color:rgb(33,37,41);font-family:Roboto,sans-serif;font-size:18px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><span></span></span></i><i>
</i><br>
</blockquote>
<p>Must we always begin with the assumption that growth in
terms of geographical/geometric, material and energy
consumption/appropriation are requisite to
continuing/growing a "prosperous society"? Tangentially
(or not), if "green" hydrogen implies a 2:1 ratio of CO2
production to H2 but often begins with fossil fuels, it is
obviously yet another "kick the can down the road"
solution. Harvesting solar and
direct-solar/lunar-derived energy (including wind, tidal)
and channeling it through our living (including
technological infrastructure and agri-industry) systems to
yield high-entropy "waste heat" seems to be orders of
magnitude more sustainable (if still questionable on some
very long time-scale limited by a
Dyson-Sphere-like-limit). If the H2 is created by
cracking H20 (and capturing both to be recombined later to
release energy) using solar (and other renewables) energy
it is a *closed cycle*. One would presume the total
amount of H2 we would have stored/<br>
</p>
<p>From ecology there comes the observed phenomena of
"island syndrome" which can include island dwarfism and
poikilothermy which are both driven by reducing the demand
on finite resources without giving up function or
complexity. <br>
</p>
<p>From Alexander Payne comes the absurdist SciFi flick <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downsizing_(film)#Plot" target="_blank">Downsizing</a>
which postulates by shrinking humans by ???-fold (5 inches
tall ~= 12:1 in 1 dimension, 144:1 in cross section and
1728:1 in volume/mass... ) the movie implies no change in
metabolic rates which would nominally speed up with
"shrinkage", yielding (also) shorter lifespans. Oh
well.. Fiction. But the point would seem well taken...
Gaia would get a 2000:1 reprieve from our *current*
energy/mass burden on her systems. <br>
</p>
<p>I'm not promoting shrinking people as-such, just noting
that our 0th order instinct is growth, and supralinear if
at all possible, up to and likely achieving Kurzweillian
asymptotic resource consumption.<br>
</p>
<p>On that note, I believe that the myriad technological
singularity concepts all point toward increased
complexity and downscaling to extend the use of material
and energy, driving up the effective collective metabolism
of "the system" and paradoxically *increasing* the rate at
which we approach any of the jillion ecophagic <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo" target="_blank">gray-goo</a>-like
scenarios neo-luddites like me might contrive.<br>
</p>
<p>I assume (but have not yet poked around for) that Alifers
have already studied the multi-scale *structure* of
negative entropy profiles in complex systems-of-systems.
I think Glen has his ear closer to that rail than some
here? EricS? ??? I'm still fascinated in the topic but
gave up my little-toenail-purchase in the community in the
early 2000s - <a href="https://cseweb.ucsd.edu//~rik/alife6/papers/SY51.html" target="_blank">Symbiotic
Intelligence ALifeVI</a>. This reads so naive yet
(mildly) prophetic now...</p>
<p>All is lost! Flee the solar system!<br>
</p>
<blockquote><i> </i></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Feb 6, 2022, at 7:20 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<p>Grey hydrogen?</p>
<p><a href="https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/" target="_blank">https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/</a>
</p>
</div>
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