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<p class="MsoNormal">How does the volume and available pressure compare to subterranean storage of compressed air?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Michael Orshan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 7, 2022 9:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi. I'm a reader more than a contributor, but the Hydrogen discussion is close to my day to day. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Many of us in renewables think Hydrogen might mostly be kick the can as Steve mentioned. It is something that might be economically feasible in the 2030s and so the length of time oil companies sell oil increases. Having said that, there
are a number of very pricey Hydrogen projects getting funded. That might be showing how profitable the O&G industry is. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'm working with a company we call <a href="http://www.breezesqueeze.com%20">
Breeze</a>. It uses compressed air in pipelines to move turbines at power plants. Without fossil fuels or using water this is getting a lot of attention. There are many advantages such as cold air where compressed air is released that can be used by data
centers. 25% of all GHGs come from generating electricity. 45% of all water used in the US is used to create electricity. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">We see this as a better option than Hydrogen. We do think Hydrogen fuel cells are a solution for mobile applications. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mike Orshan<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 10:27 AM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 2/6/22 8:31 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/" target="_blank">https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><i> </i><i><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Roboto;color:#212529;background:white">Low-cost fossil fuel resources are finite. Someday it will simply not be possible to burn oil, natural gas, and
coal for the affordable heat, electricity, and motive power humans need to power their prosperous societies.
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<p>Must we always begin with the assumption that growth in terms of geographical/geometric, material and energy consumption/appropriation are requisite to continuing/growing a "prosperous society"? Tangentially (or not), if "green" hydrogen implies a 2:1
ratio of CO2 production to H2 but often begins with fossil fuels, it is obviously yet another "kick the can down the road" solution. Harvesting solar and direct-solar/lunar-derived energy (including wind, tidal) and channeling it through our living (including
technological infrastructure and agri-industry) systems to yield high-entropy "waste heat" seems to be orders of magnitude more sustainable (if still questionable on some very long time-scale limited by a Dyson-Sphere-like-limit). If the H2 is created by
cracking H20 (and capturing both to be recombined later to release energy) using solar (and other renewables) energy it is a *closed cycle*. One would presume the total amount of H2 we would have stored/<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>From ecology there comes the observed phenomena of "island syndrome" which can include island dwarfism and poikilothermy which are both driven by reducing the demand on finite resources without giving up function or complexity.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>From Alexander Payne comes the absurdist SciFi flick <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downsizing_(film)#Plot" target="_blank">
Downsizing</a> which postulates by shrinking humans by ???-fold (5 inches tall ~= 12:1 in 1 dimension, 144:1 in cross section and 1728:1 in volume/mass... ) the movie implies no change in metabolic rates which would nominally speed up with "shrinkage", yielding
(also) shorter lifespans. Oh well.. Fiction. But the point would seem well taken... Gaia would get a 2000:1 reprieve from our *current* energy/mass burden on her systems.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I'm not promoting shrinking people as-such, just noting that our 0th order instinct is growth, and supralinear if at all possible, up to and likely achieving Kurzweillian asymptotic resource consumption.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>On that note, I believe that the myriad technological singularity concepts all point toward increased complexity and downscaling to extend the use of material and energy, driving up the effective collective metabolism of "the system" and paradoxically *increasing*
the rate at which we approach any of the jillion ecophagic <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo" target="_blank">
gray-goo</a>-like scenarios neo-luddites like me might contrive.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I assume (but have not yet poked around for) that Alifers have already studied the multi-scale *structure* of negative entropy profiles in complex systems-of-systems. I think Glen has his ear closer to that rail than some here? EricS? ??? I'm still fascinated
in the topic but gave up my little-toenail-purchase in the community in the early 2000s -
<a href="https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~rik/alife6/papers/SY51.html" target="_blank">Symbiotic Intelligence ALifeVI</a>. This reads so naive yet (mildly) prophetic now...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>All is lost! Flee the solar system!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Feb 6, 2022, at 7:20 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">
thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p>Grey hydrogen?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><a href="https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/" target="_blank">https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/</a>
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