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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/6/22 8:31 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:3D387734-C401-4484-A669-6AC7E8B4ED4E@snoutfarm.com">
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<a
href="https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/</a><br>
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<blockquote><i> </i><i><span style="color: rgb(33, 37, 41);
font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 18px;
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initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;">Low-cost fossil fuel resources are
finite. Someday it will simply not be possible to burn oil,
natural gas, and coal for the affordable heat, electricity,
and motive power humans need to power their prosperous
societies.<span> </span></span></i><br>
<i><span style="color: rgb(33, 37, 41); font-family: Roboto,
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<p>Must we always begin with the assumption that growth in terms of
geographical/geometric, material and energy
consumption/appropriation are requisite to continuing/growing a
"prosperous society"? Tangentially (or not), if "green" hydrogen
implies a 2:1 ratio of CO2 production to H2 but often begins with
fossil fuels, it is obviously yet another "kick the can down the
road" solution. Harvesting solar and direct-solar/lunar-derived
energy (including wind, tidal) and channeling it through our
living (including technological infrastructure and agri-industry)
systems to yield high-entropy "waste heat" seems to be orders of
magnitude more sustainable (if still questionable on some very
long time-scale limited by a Dyson-Sphere-like-limit). If the
H2 is created by cracking H20 (and capturing both to be recombined
later to release energy) using solar (and other renewables) energy
it is a *closed cycle*. One would presume the total amount of H2
we would have stored/<br>
</p>
<p>From ecology there comes the observed phenomena of "island
syndrome" which can include island dwarfism and poikilothermy
which are both driven by reducing the demand on finite resources
without giving up function or complexity. <br>
</p>
<p>From Alexander Payne comes the absurdist SciFi flick <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downsizing_(film)#Plot">Downsizing</a>
which postulates by shrinking humans by ???-fold (5 inches tall ~=
12:1 in 1 dimension, 144:1 in cross section and 1728:1 in
volume/mass... ) the movie implies no change in metabolic rates
which would nominally speed up with "shrinkage", yielding (also)
shorter lifespans. Oh well.. Fiction. But the point would seem
well taken... Gaia would get a 2000:1 reprieve from our *current*
energy/mass burden on her systems. <br>
</p>
<p>I'm not promoting shrinking people as-such, just noting that our
0th order instinct is growth, and supralinear if at all possible,
up to and likely achieving Kurzweillian asymptotic resource
consumption.<br>
</p>
<p>On that note, I believe that the myriad technological singularity
concepts all point toward increased complexity and downscaling to
extend the use of material and energy, driving up the effective
collective metabolism of "the system" and paradoxically
*increasing* the rate at which we approach any of the jillion
ecophagic <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo">gray-goo</a>-like
scenarios neo-luddites like me might contrive.<br>
</p>
<p>I assume (but have not yet poked around for) that Alifers have
already studied the multi-scale *structure* of negative entropy
profiles in complex systems-of-systems. I think Glen has his ear
closer to that rail than some here? EricS? ??? I'm still
fascinated in the topic but gave up my little-toenail-purchase in
the community in the early 2000s - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://cseweb.ucsd.edu//~rik/alife6/papers/SY51.html">Symbiotic
Intelligence ALifeVI</a>. This reads so naive yet (mildly)
prophetic now...</p>
<p>All is lost! Flee the solar system!<br>
</p>
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cite="mid:3D387734-C401-4484-A669-6AC7E8B4ED4E@snoutfarm.com">
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<blockquote type="cite">On Feb 6, 2022, at 7:20 PM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
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<p>Grey hydrogen?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><a
href="https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/</a>
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