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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/7/22 8:51 PM, Michael Orshan
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAGuTSuAYC9YK5TfKxmS=_39QMiR2euX4sboYXBM1wHpJ5u7t4Q@mail.gmail.com">
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        <div dir="auto">Renewable has three issues right now and
          generation is not one of them, yet most people focus on
          generation.  The issues are intermittency, transmission lines
          and financing new assets.  We are forcing the retirement of
          revenue producing assets they have been paid for.  By storing
          air in pipelines until needed we are solving intermittency. 
          By generating closer where the energy is used we are greatly
          reducing the need for transmission.  By reusing the
          infrastructure we are saving a paid for asset.  Yes the
          conversion efficiency is low, but who cares.  The storage is
          incredibly huge.  Inertia energy itself pays for itself 50x
          this way and its instant.  Look up Long Duration Energy
          Systems.  This is the scramble that is going on right now.  <br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Mike -</p>
    <p>From your executive lineup, I'm sure you guys are doing both the
      engineering work as well as the financial/legal work to try to
      make this concept viable.   It seems like a "niche" application
      but not as niche as the CAES perhaps.  It seems like you are
      cashing in on the serendipity of the nature of NG power generation
      infrastructure.  I had a shop teacher in HS who taught ICE basics
      on a small diesel engine he had converted to run (low power/speed)
      on compressed air.   <br>
    </p>
    <p>I trust that even if YOU don't work hard on the problems of
      conversion efficiency, it seems likely that others *are* working
      on that problem to cash in on the marginal gain.   The "efficient
      market" to the rescue.    Since the conversion efficiency (I
      believe) is primarily about heat/coolth dissipation on both ends, 
      that low-grade heat on the re-generation side is appropriate
      (direct solar collection, geothermal, heat-pump).    I'm not
      positive, but it seems as if the transmission losses are less than
      with electricity.<br>
    </p>
    <p>I see from your preliminary literature you are also planning for
      the direct use of "waste" heat on one side and "waste" coolth on
      the other as an industrial product.   The passthrough of
      compressed air to industry is also auspicious... minimizing the
      conversion inefficiencies by skipping intermediate steps...  I
      doubt many industrial contexts have a compressed air source, but
      rather have to create it on-site with ICE or Electric
      to-mechanical-to-compressor.</p>
    <p>As an amateur complexicist, I am a fan of multi-scale
      systems....  so I look forward to systems like yours not being
      scaled (only) to mega-industry.  I wonder at how far out the
      existing distribution chain you can push compressed air
      practically?  I doubt there are (m)any mechanics or private homes,
      for example, who could give up their NG feed (heat mostly) for
      compressed air, even if the upstream distribution were converting.
        The new(ish) DC-powered residential scale mini-split heat-pumps
      would seem to operate well off of any mechanical energy source
      (not just PWM modulated variable speed DC motors) and the
      decompressed chilled air from the air-motor would go right into
      boosting the efficiency rather than being yet another source of
      waste heat.  Not a perpetual motion machine, just a system where
      some of the intrinsic inefficiencies are exploited/recovered
      elegantly?<br>
    </p>
    <p> The big win seems obviously to be the major NG pipelines and
      existing electric generation stations.  I can't tell from your
      literature if converting existing NG turbines to compressed air is
      even reasonable... seems like this is probably why CAES is burning
      NG to bring the charge up to the performance scale of existing
      turbine designs?    I believe that many of these plants were
      designed/modified to be "peaking" plants which it seems your tech
      is ideal for...   let the <br>
    </p>
    <p>Again, it is nice to hear someone here with a practical
      application/aspiration in the domain of
      infrastructure/industrial/energy transformation.   Many of us are
      a bit too close to the academic side of problem "solving".   <br>
    </p>
    <p>- Steve<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAGuTSuAYC9YK5TfKxmS=_39QMiR2euX4sboYXBM1wHpJ5u7t4Q@mail.gmail.com">
      <div>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 6:46
            PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
              class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">The conversion losses seem like a
                  big issue?</p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang="EN-US">
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
                      href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
                    <b>On Behalf Of
                    </b>Michael Orshan<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 7, 2022 5:42 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
                    Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning
                    Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy</p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Marcus</p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">That is a famous prototype. 
                    Recently Hydrostor made headlines building new CAES
                    plants.  The main issue is the need of a salt
                    cavern.  The amount of possible sites is very
                    small.  The caverns are used to mine salts for
                    bleaches/chemicals or to store natural gas.  This
                    tech is $111/kwh.</p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 6:14
                        PM Marcus Daniels <<a
                          href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
                        wrote:</p>
                    </div>
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                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">For comparison</p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://schaperintl.com/is-the-juice-worth-the-squeeze-compressed-air-energy-storage-for-grid-scale-power/"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://schaperintl.com/is-the-juice-worth-the-squeeze-compressed-air-energy-storage-for-grid-scale-power/</a></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">                                      
                          </p>
                          <div style="border-style:solid none
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                            <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
                                href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                                class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
                              <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Orshan<br>
                              <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 7, 2022 3:42
                              PM<br>
                              <b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
                              Complexity Coffee Group <<a
                                href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                                class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
                              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Another
                              Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our
                              Democracy</p>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Frank:</p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">We need any, but
                                hopefully renewable energy, to generate
                                power for the compressors.  This also
                                creates heat which we can recycle for
                                more electricity or use for industrial
                                purposes.  Our efficiency isn't high,
                                but once we are in the pipelines we have
                                a huge battery.  60 miles, 36 inch
                                diameter can hold 240MWh.  We can be
                                instant inertia energy or generate.  Our
                                storage costs are about $50/kwh. 
                                Batteries are $400/kwh for example. 
                                Also, we can store compressed air for
                                months upon months.  Also, if we can
                                build the renewables close enough to the
                                plant we can go DC/DC which is a 25%
                                energy savings not having to convert to
                                AC.  </p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 7, 2022
                                at 11:05 AM Frank Wimberly <<a
                                  href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  class="moz-txt-link-freetext">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
                                wrote:</p>
                            </div>
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                                <p class="MsoNormal">How do you compress
                                  the air?  Any method I can think of
                                  uses energy.  From what source?</p>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                </div>
                                <a
href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                                </a>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="margin-bottom:12pt">Frank</p>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
                                      Frank C. Wimberly<br>
                                      <a
href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">140 Calle
                                        Ojo Feliz,
                                      </a><br>
                                      <a
href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">Santa Fe,
                                        NM 87505</a><br>
                                      <br>
                                      505 670-9918<br>
                                      Santa Fe, NM</p>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 7,
                                    2022, 10:57 AM Michael Orshan <<a
                                      href="mailto:morshan@gmail.com"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext">morshan@gmail.com</a>>
                                    wrote:</p>
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                                    <p class="MsoNormal">Hi.  I'm a
                                      reader more than a contributor,
                                      but the Hydrogen discussion is
                                      close to my day to day.  </p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">Many of us in
                                        renewables think Hydrogen might
                                        mostly be kick the can as Steve
                                        mentioned.  It is something that
                                        might be economically
                                        feasible in the 2030s and so the
                                        length of time oil companies
                                        sell oil increases.  Having said
                                        that, there are a number of very
                                        pricey Hydrogen projects getting
                                        funded.  That might be showing
                                        how profitable the O&G
                                        industry is.  </p>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">I'm working
                                          with a company we call
                                          <a
                                            href="http://www.breezesqueeze.com"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">Breeze</a>. 
                                          It uses compressed air in
                                          pipelines to move turbines at
                                          power plants.  Without fossil
                                          fuels or using water this is
                                          getting a lot of attention. 
                                          There are many advantages such
                                          as cold air where compressed
                                          air is released that can be
                                          used by data centers.  25% of
                                          all GHGs come from generating
                                          electricity.  45% of all water
                                          used in the US is used to
                                          create electricity.  </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">We see this
                                          as a better option than
                                          Hydrogen.  We do think
                                          Hydrogen fuel cells are a
                                          solution for mobile
                                          applications.  </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Mike Orshan</p>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb
                                        7, 2022 at 10:27 AM Steve Smith
                                        <<a
                                          href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
                                        wrote:</p>
                                    </div>
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                                      <div>
                                        <p> </p>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/6/22
                                            8:31 PM, Marcus Daniels
                                            wrote:</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <blockquote
                                          style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/</a></p>
                                        </blockquote>
                                        <blockquote
                                          style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="margin-bottom:12pt"><i>   
                                            </i>
                                            <i><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Roboto;background-color:white;color:rgb(33,37,41)">Low-cost
                                                fossil fuel resources
                                                are finite. Someday it
                                                will simply not be
                                                possible to burn oil,
                                                natural gas, and coal
                                                for the affordable heat,
                                                electricity, and motive
                                                power humans need to
                                                power their prosperous
                                                societies. </span></i></p>
                                        </blockquote>
                                        <p>Must we always begin with the
                                          assumption that growth in
                                          terms of
                                          geographical/geometric,
                                          material and energy
                                          consumption/appropriation are
                                          requisite to
                                          continuing/growing a
                                          "prosperous society"?  
                                          Tangentially (or not), if
                                          "green" hydrogen implies a 2:1
                                          ratio of CO2 production to H2
                                          but often begins with fossil
                                          fuels, it is obviously yet
                                          another "kick the can down the
                                          road" solution.   Harvesting
                                          solar and
                                          direct-solar/lunar-derived
                                          energy (including wind, tidal)
                                          and channeling it through our
                                          living (including
                                          technological infrastructure
                                          and agri-industry) systems to
                                          yield high-entropy "waste
                                          heat" seems to be orders of
                                          magnitude more sustainable (if
                                          still questionable on some
                                          very long time-scale limited
                                          by a
                                          Dyson-Sphere-like-limit).   
                                          If the H2 is created by
                                          cracking H20 (and capturing
                                          both to be recombined later to
                                          release energy) using solar
                                          (and other renewables) energy
                                          it is a *closed cycle*.  One
                                          would presume the total amount
                                          of H2 we would have stored/</p>
                                        <p>From ecology there comes the
                                          observed phenomena of "island
                                          syndrome" which can include
                                          island dwarfism and
                                          poikilothermy which are both
                                          driven by reducing the demand
                                          on finite resources without
                                          giving up function or
                                          complexity.  
                                        </p>
                                        <p>From Alexander Payne comes
                                          the absurdist SciFi flick <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downsizing_(film)#Plot"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">
                                            Downsizing</a> which
                                          postulates by shrinking humans
                                          by ???-fold (5 inches tall ~=
                                          12:1 in 1 dimension, 144:1 in
                                          cross section and 1728:1 in
                                          volume/mass... )  the movie
                                          implies no change in metabolic
                                          rates which would nominally
                                          speed up with "shrinkage",
                                          yielding (also) shorter
                                          lifespans.   Oh well..
                                          Fiction.   But the point would
                                          seem well taken... Gaia would
                                          get a 2000:1 reprieve from our
                                          *current* energy/mass burden
                                          on her systems.  
                                        </p>
                                        <p>I'm not promoting shrinking
                                          people as-such, just noting
                                          that our 0th order instinct is
                                          growth, and supralinear if at
                                          all possible, up to and likely
                                          achieving Kurzweillian
                                          asymptotic resource
                                          consumption.</p>
                                        <p>On that note, I believe that
                                          the myriad technological
                                          singularity concepts all point
                                          toward increased complexity 
                                          and downscaling to extend the
                                          use of material and energy,
                                          driving up the effective
                                          collective metabolism of "the
                                          system" and paradoxically
                                          *increasing* the rate at which
                                          we approach any of the jillion
                                          ecophagic <a
                                            href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">
                                            gray-goo</a>-like scenarios
                                          neo-luddites like me might
                                          contrive.</p>
                                        <p>I assume (but have not yet
                                          poked around for) that Alifers
                                          have already studied the
                                          multi-scale *structure* of
                                          negative entropy profiles in
                                          complex systems-of-systems.  
                                          I think Glen has his ear
                                          closer to that rail than some
                                          here?  EricS? ??? I'm still
                                          fascinated in the topic but
                                          gave up my
                                          little-toenail-purchase in the
                                          community in the early 2000s -
                                          <a
                                            href="https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~rik/alife6/papers/SY51.html"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">Symbiotic
                                            Intelligence ALifeVI</a>.  
                                          This reads so naive yet
                                          (mildly) prophetic now...</p>
                                        <p>All is lost! Flee the solar
                                          system!</p>
                                        <blockquote
                                          style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="margin-bottom:12pt"> </p>
                                            <blockquote
                                              style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="margin-bottom:12pt">On
                                                Feb 6, 2022, at 7:20 PM,
                                                <a
                                                  href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:</p>
                                            </blockquote>
                                          </div>
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                                            style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">
                                              </p>
                                              <div>
                                                <p>Grey hydrogen?</p>
                                                <p><a
href="https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/</a>
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