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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/7/22 8:51 PM, Michael Orshan
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAGuTSuAYC9YK5TfKxmS=_39QMiR2euX4sboYXBM1wHpJ5u7t4Q@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="auto">Renewable has three issues right now and
generation is not one of them, yet most people focus on
generation. The issues are intermittency, transmission lines
and financing new assets. We are forcing the retirement of
revenue producing assets they have been paid for. By storing
air in pipelines until needed we are solving intermittency.
By generating closer where the energy is used we are greatly
reducing the need for transmission. By reusing the
infrastructure we are saving a paid for asset. Yes the
conversion efficiency is low, but who cares. The storage is
incredibly huge. Inertia energy itself pays for itself 50x
this way and its instant. Look up Long Duration Energy
Systems. This is the scramble that is going on right now. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Mike -</p>
<p>From your executive lineup, I'm sure you guys are doing both the
engineering work as well as the financial/legal work to try to
make this concept viable. It seems like a "niche" application
but not as niche as the CAES perhaps. It seems like you are
cashing in on the serendipity of the nature of NG power generation
infrastructure. I had a shop teacher in HS who taught ICE basics
on a small diesel engine he had converted to run (low power/speed)
on compressed air. <br>
</p>
<p>I trust that even if YOU don't work hard on the problems of
conversion efficiency, it seems likely that others *are* working
on that problem to cash in on the marginal gain. The "efficient
market" to the rescue. Since the conversion efficiency (I
believe) is primarily about heat/coolth dissipation on both ends,
that low-grade heat on the re-generation side is appropriate
(direct solar collection, geothermal, heat-pump). I'm not
positive, but it seems as if the transmission losses are less than
with electricity.<br>
</p>
<p>I see from your preliminary literature you are also planning for
the direct use of "waste" heat on one side and "waste" coolth on
the other as an industrial product. The passthrough of
compressed air to industry is also auspicious... minimizing the
conversion inefficiencies by skipping intermediate steps... I
doubt many industrial contexts have a compressed air source, but
rather have to create it on-site with ICE or Electric
to-mechanical-to-compressor.</p>
<p>As an amateur complexicist, I am a fan of multi-scale
systems.... so I look forward to systems like yours not being
scaled (only) to mega-industry. I wonder at how far out the
existing distribution chain you can push compressed air
practically? I doubt there are (m)any mechanics or private homes,
for example, who could give up their NG feed (heat mostly) for
compressed air, even if the upstream distribution were converting.
The new(ish) DC-powered residential scale mini-split heat-pumps
would seem to operate well off of any mechanical energy source
(not just PWM modulated variable speed DC motors) and the
decompressed chilled air from the air-motor would go right into
boosting the efficiency rather than being yet another source of
waste heat. Not a perpetual motion machine, just a system where
some of the intrinsic inefficiencies are exploited/recovered
elegantly?<br>
</p>
<p> The big win seems obviously to be the major NG pipelines and
existing electric generation stations. I can't tell from your
literature if converting existing NG turbines to compressed air is
even reasonable... seems like this is probably why CAES is burning
NG to bring the charge up to the performance scale of existing
turbine designs? I believe that many of these plants were
designed/modified to be "peaking" plants which it seems your tech
is ideal for... let the <br>
</p>
<p>Again, it is nice to hear someone here with a practical
application/aspiration in the domain of
infrastructure/industrial/energy transformation. Many of us are
a bit too close to the academic side of problem "solving". <br>
</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAGuTSuAYC9YK5TfKxmS=_39QMiR2euX4sboYXBM1wHpJ5u7t4Q@mail.gmail.com">
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 6:46
PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The conversion losses seem like a
big issue?</p>
</div>
</div>
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border-style:solid none
none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in
0in;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of
</b>Michael Orshan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 7, 2022 5:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning
Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Marcus</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">That is a famous prototype.
Recently Hydrostor made headlines building new CAES
plants. The main issue is the need of a salt
cavern. The amount of possible sites is very
small. The caverns are used to mine salts for
bleaches/chemicals or to store natural gas. This
tech is $111/kwh.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 6:14
PM Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">For comparison</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://schaperintl.com/is-the-juice-worth-the-squeeze-compressed-air-energy-storage-for-grid-scale-power/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://schaperintl.com/is-the-juice-worth-the-squeeze-compressed-air-energy-storage-for-grid-scale-power/</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
<div style="border-style:solid none
none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in
0in;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Orshan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 7, 2022 3:42
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Another
Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our
Democracy</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Frank:</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We need any, but
hopefully renewable energy, to generate
power for the compressors. This also
creates heat which we can recycle for
more electricity or use for industrial
purposes. Our efficiency isn't high,
but once we are in the pipelines we have
a huge battery. 60 miles, 36 inch
diameter can hold 240MWh. We can be
instant inertia energy or generate. Our
storage costs are about $50/kwh.
Batteries are $400/kwh for example.
Also, we can store compressed air for
months upon months. Also, if we can
build the renewables close enough to the
plant we can go DC/DC which is a 25%
energy savings not having to convert to
AC. </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 7, 2022
at 11:05 AM Frank Wimberly <<a
href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none
none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in
0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt
4.8pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">How do you compress
the air? Any method I can think of
uses energy. From what source?</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<a
href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
</a>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt">Frank</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
<a
href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">140 Calle
Ojo Feliz,
</a><br>
<a
href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Santa Fe,
NM 87505</a><br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 7,
2022, 10:57 AM Michael Orshan <<a
href="mailto:morshan@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">morshan@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none
none none
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0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt
4.8pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi. I'm a
reader more than a contributor,
but the Hydrogen discussion is
close to my day to day. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Many of us in
renewables think Hydrogen might
mostly be kick the can as Steve
mentioned. It is something that
might be economically
feasible in the 2030s and so the
length of time oil companies
sell oil increases. Having said
that, there are a number of very
pricey Hydrogen projects getting
funded. That might be showing
how profitable the O&G
industry is. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm working
with a company we call
<a
href="http://www.breezesqueeze.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Breeze</a>.
It uses compressed air in
pipelines to move turbines at
power plants. Without fossil
fuels or using water this is
getting a lot of attention.
There are many advantages such
as cold air where compressed
air is released that can be
used by data centers. 25% of
all GHGs come from generating
electricity. 45% of all water
used in the US is used to
create electricity. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We see this
as a better option than
Hydrogen. We do think
Hydrogen fuel cells are a
solution for mobile
applications. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mike Orshan</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb
7, 2022 at 10:27 AM Steve Smith
<<a
href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none
none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in
0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt
4.8pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2/6/22
8:31 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/</a></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt"><i>
</i>
<i><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Roboto;background-color:white;color:rgb(33,37,41)">Low-cost
fossil fuel resources
are finite. Someday it
will simply not be
possible to burn oil,
natural gas, and coal
for the affordable heat,
electricity, and motive
power humans need to
power their prosperous
societies. </span></i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Must we always begin with the
assumption that growth in
terms of
geographical/geometric,
material and energy
consumption/appropriation are
requisite to
continuing/growing a
"prosperous society"?
Tangentially (or not), if
"green" hydrogen implies a 2:1
ratio of CO2 production to H2
but often begins with fossil
fuels, it is obviously yet
another "kick the can down the
road" solution. Harvesting
solar and
direct-solar/lunar-derived
energy (including wind, tidal)
and channeling it through our
living (including
technological infrastructure
and agri-industry) systems to
yield high-entropy "waste
heat" seems to be orders of
magnitude more sustainable (if
still questionable on some
very long time-scale limited
by a
Dyson-Sphere-like-limit).
If the H2 is created by
cracking H20 (and capturing
both to be recombined later to
release energy) using solar
(and other renewables) energy
it is a *closed cycle*. One
would presume the total amount
of H2 we would have stored/</p>
<p>From ecology there comes the
observed phenomena of "island
syndrome" which can include
island dwarfism and
poikilothermy which are both
driven by reducing the demand
on finite resources without
giving up function or
complexity.
</p>
<p>From Alexander Payne comes
the absurdist SciFi flick <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downsizing_(film)#Plot"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
Downsizing</a> which
postulates by shrinking humans
by ???-fold (5 inches tall ~=
12:1 in 1 dimension, 144:1 in
cross section and 1728:1 in
volume/mass... ) the movie
implies no change in metabolic
rates which would nominally
speed up with "shrinkage",
yielding (also) shorter
lifespans. Oh well..
Fiction. But the point would
seem well taken... Gaia would
get a 2000:1 reprieve from our
*current* energy/mass burden
on her systems.
</p>
<p>I'm not promoting shrinking
people as-such, just noting
that our 0th order instinct is
growth, and supralinear if at
all possible, up to and likely
achieving Kurzweillian
asymptotic resource
consumption.</p>
<p>On that note, I believe that
the myriad technological
singularity concepts all point
toward increased complexity
and downscaling to extend the
use of material and energy,
driving up the effective
collective metabolism of "the
system" and paradoxically
*increasing* the rate at which
we approach any of the jillion
ecophagic <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
gray-goo</a>-like scenarios
neo-luddites like me might
contrive.</p>
<p>I assume (but have not yet
poked around for) that Alifers
have already studied the
multi-scale *structure* of
negative entropy profiles in
complex systems-of-systems.
I think Glen has his ear
closer to that rail than some
here? EricS? ??? I'm still
fascinated in the topic but
gave up my
little-toenail-purchase in the
community in the early 2000s -
<a
href="https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~rik/alife6/papers/SY51.html"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Symbiotic
Intelligence ALifeVI</a>.
This reads so naive yet
(mildly) prophetic now...</p>
<p>All is lost! Flee the solar
system!</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt"> </p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt">On
Feb 6, 2022, at 7:20 PM,
<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
<div>
<p>Grey hydrogen?</p>
<p><a
href="https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/</a>
</p>
</div>
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
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<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives:
5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
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