<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<br>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/7/22 2:17 PM, Frank Wimberly
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAA5dAfpaPojrDFzsSFv7NF0Y4S0-WkTjtNr6Mdefs=t76AD6tQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Do any tax return forms have an item that says,
"Gift to the US Treasury"? It might work.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
I can't remember the year I quit ignoring the "give $1 to the US
Presidential Election Fund" because I "didn't want to encourage the
Bastards" and started checking it because... ??? I think because I
thought it was a token vote for "take the money out of politics"
which is of course somewhere between an oxymoron and hopeless.<br>
<p>I'm a lazy stingy/generous bastard. <br>
</p>
<p>When it mattered, I didn't always itemize deductions. I didn't
apply for child-care tax credits, I didn't optimize by doing
pre-paid medical/etc programs to avoid taxes. I don't claim
gifts to charity even if they happen to be substantial (for me,
that means 4 figures not 6 or even 5). I have sometimes gone
without even filing taxes, knowing (by rule-of-thumb) that I had
not underpaid or if I had it was in 2 figures and not likely to
get me a visit from the IRS. This has backfired (as most lazy
man's shortcuts often do) of having them put a magnifying lense on
me for a few years when I didn't file with the IRS/NMtax levying
fines on those small underpayments whilst not wanting to hear
about the overpayments I let slide in other years... I'm betting
the US/NM treasuries are 4 and 3 figures, respectively fatter
because I CBB. And easily 2x or 10x that because I have never
felt like I deserved to use "obvious cheats" to beat them out of
some of that. <br>
</p>
<p>I *do* drive on the public-funded highways and I *did* send my
kids to public schools and they did enjoy the fruits of various
scholarship/grant/loan programs for that purpose. And I worked
for Big Freddy via UC at LANL for a whole career where I was paid
less than most of my peers but felt like we *all* got paid really
well (just look at the service people/teachers in the area trying
to get by on a fraction of our professional salaries)<br>
</p>
<p>I don't begrudge paying a tithe to Big Stupid even if I *do*
begrudge Big Stupid's stupidity. But then I accept it, Big Stupid
isn't/can't be? any smarter really than a smart slime mold or a
dumb jellyfish. If I were more paranoid about Big Stupid I'd try
to stay more out of her way... if I were more tragically or often
a victim of Big Stupid (like being a young urban black man or many
different subclasses of women, etc) I might be more paranoid and
therefore more P and Q minded or more resentful of the taxes I
voluntary put in front of the Big Rake, or maybe more to the
point, don't pull back as quickly as others would.</p>
<p>I still try to be helpful/generous or at least not-stingy with
those in my personal circle. Glen has indicated that this is
somehow a hyper-individualist kinda thing to do and maybe he's
right. I don't feel bad about throwing (some) money/energy into
the wind if I think there is someone downwind who can benefit from
it. Hell, I like leaving change on the sidewalk if I drop it,
knowing someone else will enjoy picking it up (and spending it) a
lot more than I will. All this because I am in fact a lazy,
generous, stingy bastard and (apparently from re-reading this)
proud of it.</p>
<p>BTW, Vlada made it into Poland yesterday and the process of
getting her into the US/Wisconsin has begun. Apparently there are
order 30K Ukranians already in the US expected to apply for
Temporary Protected Status when our "quota" for *European*
refugees under this status is 10K a year. <br>
</p>
<p> There was a piece in the paper about a real-estate guy in Santa
Fe (Berkshire Hathaway) who flew to Europe, rented a car and has
been (might still be) driving (one gas-tank round-trip?) into
Ukraine and bringing back whomever he can give a ride. It sounds
like a good way to scratch the itch to help in person. I don't
know if he is causing more interference than good, but if he IS
being good enough to haul in consumables (like fuel and food) and
not interfere with the "official" methods, then more power to
him. <br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAA5dAfpaPojrDFzsSFv7NF0Y4S0-WkTjtNr6Mdefs=t76AD6tQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 7, 2022, 2:10 PM
Eric Charles <<a
href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Glen,
<div>Intentional, but not distortion. <br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="all">
If they were advocating more funding to
cancer research, then just as you suggest we
would want to see if they also gave
philanthropically to support cancer
research. If they were advocating more
funding to the arts, then we would want to
see what they gave to the arts (e.g., my
Kennedy Center) example. Many rich people
behave in exactly this way; I've seen tons
of rich people over the years running those
sorts of messages to good effect. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>The parallel in this situation: If they
were advocating more of their money be taken
in taxes and put into the federal general
fund, we would want evidence that they were
voluntarily paying more taxes than they owe.
Preferably, we would want to see something
in line with whatever tax policies they are
advocating be applied to people of their
wealth level, but I'd be happy with any
sizable payment over what they currently owe
under current IRS code. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Can we find evidence of a single one of
them even claiming to have done that? Not
hard evidence that they did so, even just a
claim to have done so. Has anyone on here
seen such a claim?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I obviously haven't done an exhaustive
search, but I've been tracking rich
people talking about this individually or in
groups for probably three decades now, and
I've never seen anyone openly claim to have
volentarily paid the amount of taxes they
would owe under the system they claim to
want applied to them by force. I've never
even seen someone talk about how the
movement inspired them to pay <i><u>any</u>
</i>general taxes over what they owe within
the current system. It is pretty weird to
publicly announce that you are only willing
to do the something you claim is morally
right if you are forced to do so by
legislation. In what other context do we
ever see those kinds of statements? </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at
1:04 PM glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">It's not clear to me
if EricC is accidentally or purposefully distorting the
message. In order for us to accuse the participants in
Patriotic Millionaires (PM) of *not* supporting any
given cause, we'd need to look at their individual
philanthropy. Looking at the stances, lobbying, and
messaging of PM is inadequate.<br>
<br>
E.g. If we took a look at an issue PM says is Good, a
"value", and we examine the donations of all the PM
participants and found that either a) they don't donate
any of their money at all or b) they donate to
everything except the values of the PM, *then* EricC's
rhetoric would have some traction.<br>
<br>
Otherwise, what an org advocates is not, cannot ever be,
identical to what its members advocate.<br>
<br>
I've done none of that work of comparing PM's
advocacy/lobbying and its participants' actions. Perhaps
others have?<br>
<br>
On 3/7/22 09:51, Eric Charles wrote:<br>
> Pick a cause if you want, or just send your money
to the government if the<br>
> point is that you think the government should have
it. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯<br>
> <br>
> <<a href="mailto:echarles@american.edu"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">echarles@american.edu</a>><br>
> A Javelin missile costs $175,203 according to
Wikipedia. 4 years of college<br>
> education is cheaper than that at most
institutions. *Any *millionaire<br>
> could just cover one of those, if they thought that
was the best use of<br>
> their money. *Any *millionaire could cover 4 of
them, and still have a<br>
> significantly higher net worth than the median
American under 40. We need<br>
> to stop pretending otherwise. If someone has
several million, they could<br>
> cover a whole lot more and still be doing just
fine.<br>
> <br>
> "Look, man, I think helping kids go to college is a
morally crucial<br>
> activity and that those who have an obligation to
support it should do<br>
> so... But I won't help with that unless I know a
legislature is forcing<br>
> lots of other people to help kids go to college!"
Well.... ok.... but<br>
> that's a pretty shitty position to take.<br>
> <br>
> Maybe you think it's so important that you want to
help yourself, and you *also<br>
> *you think others should be forced to help. Sure. I
don't like that<br>
> position, but it is sensible, and you can morally
ground it in all sorts of<br>
> ways. But no level of moral importance should exist
as a category where you<br>
> won't help unless everyone else is forced to as
well. Yes, people take that<br>
> position all the time. But it is a morally shitty
position, and we should<br>
> treat it that way.<br>
> <br>
> Phrased differently: Having the government pick up
the slack when<br>
> individual action is insufficient can often make
sense. Claiming that only<br>
> government action should happen, and then acting as
if that claim somehow<br>
> relieves individuals from any obligation to live up
to their purported<br>
> moral values, is crap.<br>
> <br>
> If you think it is important to support local kids
getting a college<br>
> education, then step up. You are in absolutely no
sense "a bum" or "a<br>
> sucker" if you help someone afford a college
education and your neighbor<br>
> doesn't. That's not how moral action works. Not at
all. The correct<br>
> response to someone trying to act that way is to
try to force them to admit<br>
> the obvious truth, which is that they have chosen
not to support whatever<br>
> the cause is that is in question.<br>
> <br>
> Again, if they *are *supporting the cause, and
adding on top of their<br>
> individual support a statement that they also think
others should do more,<br>
> that's a much more defendable position. Statements
like "I think the arts<br>
> should be supported, which is why I donated $XX,XXX
to The Kennedy Center,<br>
> while lobbying my federal congressperson for more
tax support" is perfectly<br>
> reasonable, as is "I think we need to better
support local kids going to<br>
> college, which is why I provided 5 $X,XXX local-kid
scholarships this local<br>
> high school graduates, while also talking with my
state congressperson<br>
> about upping state funding to state schools."<br>
> <br>
> Do a survey of the "Patriotic Millionaires" and ask
them how much more they<br>
> paid in taxes than what they owed. My guess is that
you would find $0 as<br>
> the across the board answer. If it's not $0 across
the board, certainly the<br>
> median will be $0.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 9:47 AM Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
>> Let’s say it is not a box of cookies but a four
year college scholarship<br>
>> or a Javelin missile launcher. The millionaire
might be able to pay those<br>
>> individually, but no one else. In that
situation there is no sales for the<br>
>> individual girl scouts to perform. At best a
few heroic medium-sized<br>
>> donations.<br>
>><br>
>> Some purchases will be out of reach without
spreading the cost around,<br>
>> even over thousands of millionaires.<br>
>><br>
>> On Mar 7, 2022, at 6:04 AM, Eric Charles <<a
href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> <br>
>> Marcus,<br>
>> Let's say you have a neighbor who's always
talking about wanting to<br>
>> support the girl scouts, and who even goes so
far as to set up a web page<br>
>> about how important it is to support the girl
scouts, and pays to have<br>
>> signs printed and distributed around town about
how important it is to<br>
>> support girl scouts. You have a cousin in the
girl scouts, so you send her<br>
>> over with the girl-scout cookie order form. The
neighbor takes a look at<br>
>> the forms and tells your cousin "While I *do
*think I should support girl<br>
>> scouts, I am not going to give you any money
unless everyone else in the<br>
>> neighboorhood is forced to give you money too.
Don't ask me to be a chump."<br>
>><br>
>> What would we make of that?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> <<a href="mailto:echarles@american.edu"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">echarles@american.edu</a>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 11:13 PM Marcus Daniels
<<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Facebook had advertisements on TV for a few
months talking about their<br>
>>> efforts to review content for fake news.
They advocated government<br>
>>> regulation. Commonality being that a
taxation or regulation impacts them<br>
>>> and their competitors in the same way, so
their effective power and<br>
>>> influence won’t be negatively impacted.
“Don’t ask me to be a chump.”<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Mar 6, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Eric Charles
<<a href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> <br>
>>> Frank,<br>
>>> That all seems 100% positive to me.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Do you also routinely publicly complain
about how legislatures are lax in<br>
>>> not forcing you to do more of that sort of
thing, because you strongly<br>
>>> think that you should do more, but are
unwilling to without the government<br>
>>> forcing you to?<br>
>>><br>
>>> THAT is what the Patriotic Millionaires are
doing.<br>
>>><br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:echarles@american.edu"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">echarles@american.edu</a>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 9:43 PM Frank
Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>> I probably shouldn't volunteer to be a
case in your argument but...<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I do make donations to universities and
a church. Today my wife and<br>
>>>> grandson Matthew assembled packages of
hygiene products for Ukrainian<br>
>>>> refugees which included things like
towels, toothpaste, toothbrushes, soap,<br>
>>>> shampoo etc. This was done at United
Church of Santa Fe. As for financial<br>
>>>> contributions we spend $20k per year
for tuition at Matthew's school which<br>
>>>> is a Montessori school for kids with
executive function problems. There<br>
>>>> are a number of scholarship students
whose families wouldn't be able to<br>
>>>> send their kids there without help.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The church group put together 137
packages this morning. We donated<br>
>>>> funds for the purchase of some of the
stuff.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Melinda Gates said that if you're a
billionaire you can donate half of<br>
>>>> your assets without any impact on your
lifestyle. But that's a different<br>
>>>> question.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Frank<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ---<br>
>>>> Frank C. Wimberly<br>
>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,<br>
>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 505 670-9918<br>
>>>> Santa Fe, NM<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 7:24 PM Eric
Charles <<br>
>>>> <a
href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> While some of the goals of groups
like "Patriotic Millionaires" are<br>
>>>>> admirable, I can never get past the
blatant hypocrisy of it all. Maybe<br>
>>>>> "hypocrisy" isn't exactly the right
term. You could also see the part<br>
>>>>> that bugs me as a bizarre worship
of the benefits of authority over<br>
>>>>> individual choice. Let me rephrase
their primary claim: "I, as a rich<br>
>>>>> person, recognize that I really
*should *give more of my money to<br>
>>>>> certain causes, but I adamantly
refuse to do so unless forced to do so by<br>
>>>>> the federal legislature."<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> What is anyone really to make of
that position? Is it any different<br>
>>>>> than trying to look virtuous by
saying that you know you should stop using<br>
>>>>> child labor in your mine, while
also publicly refusing to stop unless the<br>
>>>>> government makes you?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 3:08 PM glen
<<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Obviously, I'm either
procrastinating or unclear on how best to do<br>
>>>>>> actual work today because here
is yet another thing I meant to talk about<br>
>>>>>> with someone, anyone, awhile
back:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> <a
href="https://patrioticmillionaires.org/about/"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://patrioticmillionaires.org/about/</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> A salon participant recently
asked whether "greed" was our most<br>
>>>>>> nefarious trait as a species.
It's a great question for sparking<br>
>>>>>> discussion. My answer was that
the most nefarious trait of *all* species is<br>
>>>>>> myopia, the inability to reason
over externalities, from pond scum to the<br>
>>>>>> Trust <<a
href="https://raised-by-wolves.fandom.com/wiki/Trust"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://raised-by-wolves.fandom.com/wiki/Trust</a>>.
But to<br>
>>>>>> de-emphasize what people think
of as "greed", I said "Trying to ensure you<br>
>>>>>> have enough money to live out
your life in relative comfort is not greed.<br>
>>>>>> Greed is, after acquiring
billions of dollars, you feel the need to acquire<br>
>>>>>> more billions of dollars."<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> I found Patriotic Millionaires
prior to that conversation. And it<br>
>>>>>> seems legit ... a set of
outwardly greedy people who recognize limits to<br>
>>>>>> their greed ... a recognition
that there's a spectrum of merit, some luck,<br>
>>>>>> some effort, some systemic
infrastructure, etc. Overall, [m|b]illionaire<br>
>>>>>> philanthropy (and especially
effective altruism) seem like jokes to me,<br>
>>>>>> very postmodern jokes. "Here,
let me given you a billion dollars without<br>
>>>>>> fundamentally rewriting your
genetic code." Pffft. Give anyone enough money<br>
>>>>>> and you'll corrupt them
fundamentally, often against their will.<br>
>>>>>> Philanthropists know this.
Effective Altruism is an oxymoron. You can't<br>
>>>>>> both be coercive and altruistic
at the same time. >8^D<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Anyway, I'd welcome any opinion
on Patriotic Millionaires.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
glen<br>
When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.<br>
<br>
<br>
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -.
.--- ..- --. .- - .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives:<br>
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .---
..- --. .- - .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives:<br>
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives:
5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>