<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Glen asked: <i>"Do we have self-attending machines that can change what parts of self they're attending? Change from soft to hard? Allow for self-attending the part that's self-attending (and up and around in a loopy way)? To what extent can we make them modal, swapping from learning mode to perform mode?" </i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I'll not attempt a direct response, yet; but I am certain I will have one in a few days. I am in the middle of digesting:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The Master and his Emissary<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The Matter With Things, vol I: The Ways to Truth<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The Matter With Things. vol II: What Then Is True<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">All by Iain McGilchrist<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">(total pages a little over 1500)<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Attending is a key concept.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">All center on the bicameral mind, how the two sides work cooperatively and constantly, but how they offer different perspectives and different means of attending.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">A key thesis is that the "rationale" left-brain has assumed dominance and distorts our view of the world and of ourselves. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I have long contended (since my Ph. D. thesis in 1988) that AIs will never equal human intelligence because they cannot and do not participate in "culture." From McGilchrist, I will be amending / extending that argument to include, <i>"<b>because they lack a right brain."</b></i><b><br></b></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Wed, Apr 13, 2022, at 8:36 AM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> But we don't "create the neural structure over and over", at least we <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> don't create the *same* neural structure over and over. One way in <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> which big-data-trained self-attending ANN structures now mimic meat <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> intelligence is in that very intense training period. Development (from <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> zygote to (dysfunctional) adult) is the training. Adulting is the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> testing/execution. But these transformer based mechanisms don't seem, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> in my ignorance, to be as flexible as those grown in meat. Do we have <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> self-attending machines that can change what parts of self they're <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> attending? Change from soft to hard? Allow for self-attending the part <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> that's self-attending (and up and around in a loopy way)? To what <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> extent can we make them modal, swapping from learning mode to perform <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> mode? As SteveS points out, can machine intelligence "play" or <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> "practice" in the sense normal animals like us do? Are our modes even <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> modes? Or is all performance a type of play? To what extent can we make <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> them "social", collecting/integrating multiple transformer-based ANNs <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> so as to form a materially open problem solving collective?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Anyway, it seems to me the neural structure is *not* an encoding of a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> means to do things. It's a *complement* to the state(s) of the world in <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> which the neural structure grew. Co-evolutionary processes seem <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> different from encoding. Adversaries don't encode models of their <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> opponents so much as they mold their selves to smear into, fit with, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> innervate, anastomose [\u26e7], their adversaries. This is what makes 2 <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> party games similar to team games and distinguishes "play" (infinite or <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> meta-games) from "gaming" (finite, or well-bounded payoff games).<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Again, I'm not suggesting machine intelligence can't do any of this; or <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> even that they aren't doing it to some small extent now. I'm only <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> suggesting they'll have to do *more* of it in order to be as capable as <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> meat intelligence.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> [\u26e7] I like "anastomotic" for adversarial systems as opposed to <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> "innervated" for co-evolution because anastomotic tissue seems (to me) <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> to result from a kind of high pressure, biomechanical stress. Perhaps <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> an analogy of soft martial arts styles to innervate and hard styles to <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> anastomose?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> On 4/12/22 20:43, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Today, humans go to some length to record history, to preserve companies and their assets. But for some reason preserving the means to do things -- the essence of a mind -- this has this different status. Why not seek to inherit minds too? Sure, I can see the same knowledge base can be represented in different ways. But, studying those neural representations could also be informative. What if neural structures have similar topological properties given some curriculum? What a waste to create that neural structure over and over..<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> -----Original Message-----<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of Steve Smith<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2022 7:22 PM<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> On 4/12/22 5:53 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> I am not saying such a system would not need to be predatory or parasitic, just that it can be arranged to preserve the contents of a library.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> And I can't help knee-jerking that when a cell attempts to live forever (and/or replicate itself perfectly) that it becomes a tumour in the<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> organ(ism) that gave rise to it, and even metastasizes, spreading it's hubris to other organs/systems.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Somehow, I think the inter-planetary post-human singularians are more like metastatic cells than "the future of humanity". Maybe that is NOT a dead-end, but my mortality-chauvanistic "self" rebels. Maybe if I live long enough I'll come around... or maybe there will be a CAS mediated edit to fix that pessimism in me.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> On Apr 12, 2022, at 4:29 PM, glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> \ufeffDude. Every time I think we could stop, you say something I object to. >8^D You're doing it on purpose. I'm sure of it ... like pulling the wings off flies and cackling like a madman.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> No, the maintenance protocol must be *part of* the meat-like intelligence. That's why I mention things like suicide or starving yourself because your wife stops feeding you. To me, a forever-autopoietic system seems like a perpetual motion machine ... there's something being taken for granted by the conception ... some unlimited free energy or somesuch.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -- <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> M\u0265\u01ddu \u01ddl\u01ddd\u0265\u0250u\u0287s \u025f\u1d09\u0183\u0265\u0287' \u0287\u0265\u01dd \u0183\u0279\u0250ss sn\u025f\u025f\u01dd\u0279s\u02d9<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> archives:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></body></html>