<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">I will channel McGilchrist here, not assert my own opinions/reasoning:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The argument you have posited is an example of left-brain arrogance <b>(NOT MARCUS ARROGANCE)</b> in assuming that the left-brain perception and apprehension, a totally reductionist and representationalist one, of the universe is the only truth. All that holism, connectedness, empathy, stochastic dynamism, etc. that the right-brain believes to be truth is woo-woo nonsense and it can be ignored.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">There is also the purely pragmatic problem, ala the 19th century physics of Mach, that if you had perfect knowledge of every particle in the universe at time 1 you could predict with perfect accuracy its state at time 2. Replicating the totality of sensors and the variable range of sensitivity in context (e.g. changes in pressure as the water cools as a function of distance from jet), plus the variability in the pattern of sensors that are simultaneously reporting, and, and, and<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Even if true in principle, it is pragmatically impossible.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Fri, May 13, 2022, at 3:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> I am sure I have said it dozens of times before: Create a robot <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> covered in sensors of similar pressure and temperature sensitivity. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Have it sit in the tub and use some algorithm to learn the distribution <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> of the sensors and how relates to the performance of its own motor <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> system. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> On May 13, 2022, at 3:36 PM, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> On 5/12/22 13:56, Jon Zingale wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> An interesting property of turbulence is that it need not be a statement about fluids, but rather a property entailed by a system of equations. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> McGilchrist would assert that the "reality" that is apprehended by the left-brain is precisely that set of abstract equations. However, the right-brain apprehension of "reality" is the totality of the experience of sitting in the spa and feeling the bubbles and jets caress your body.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> The latter is not expressible in equations.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> On Fri, May 13, 2022, at 1:47 PM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> On 5/12/22 10:32, Steve Smith wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> I personally don't think "Turbulent Flow" is an oxymoron.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> Exactly! That's the point. By denouncing negation, I'm ultimately <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> denouncing contradiction in all it's horrifying forms. It's judo, not <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> karate.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> On 5/12/22 13:56, Jon Zingale wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> An interesting property of turbulence is that it need not be a statement about fluids, but rather a property entailed by a system of equations. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> I'm a bit worried about all the meaning packed into "property", <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> "entailed", and "system of equations". But as long as we read <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> "equations" *very* generously, then I'm down.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> On 5/12/22 19:54, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> Unitary operators are needed. Apply a Trumping operator you get a Biden and apply another one to get a Trump back. To make this work a bunch of ancillary bits are needed to record all the wisdom that Trump destroys. I am afraid we are dealing with a dissipative system, though.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> IDK. The allowance of unitary operators seems to be a restatement of <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> orthogonality. In a world where no 2 variates/objects can be perfectly <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> separated, there can be no unitary operators. (Or, perhaps every <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> operator has an error term. f(x) → y ∪ ε) I haven't done the work. But <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> it seems further that we can define logics without negation and logics <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> without currying. Can we define logics with neither? What's the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> expressive power of such a persnickety thing? Is it that such a thing <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> can't exist? Or merely that our language is incapable of talking about <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> that thing with complete faith? Biden is clearly not not(Trump), at <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> least if the object of interest is "too damned {old, white, male}". 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