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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/16/22 3:43 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Are you sure that creativity is anything
but imitation, method (algorithms), and noise?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I am absolutely NOT sure of that, but expect many hairs to be
split amongst the nature of imitation, method and noise before
such is demonstrated. <br>
</p>
<p>I think it is notable that you separate noise from method and
imitation rather than treating it as a combination of the others
since "random number generators" are algorithms which "imitate"
noise, no?<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BYAPR11MB38300FD61A3D51A8EF4B3B77C5CF9@BYAPR11MB3830.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 16, 2022 2:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] quotes and questions<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 5/15/22 10:42 AM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">If you are right then deep fakes, online
or in meat space, will fail.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><i>you don't have to fool all of the people all of the
time... </i><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>I find Gabriel's poetry rather deficient (not that I am an
expert, so perhaps it is mere taste) and Inkwell's even
moreso, though in response to this thread I read a number from
his collection "100 Poems Imitating 100 Translations" which
are described as "responses" to 100 classic Japanese poems
which is a tradition in poetry (to write poem in response or
homage to another poem) and found them quite pleasing and
insightful. It felt that his poems were *inspired* by the
originals, though without the originals at-hand I'm not sure
how much he was inspired and how much was in fact "imitation"
as advertised. If it was the latter then I suppose I'm much
more impressed with what the original did than what Gabriel
did by "imitating" the originals without breaking them.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I am not sure that automatic * generation tools can do
anything *but* imitate and emulate, by their very
construction? Gabriel's title invoking "imitating" suggests
to me that his Inkwell (at least) aspires to do no more than
imitate. It is a fun parlor trick to create an imitation that
"can pass" in polite company. The "creative process" is
subjectively something different from imitation or
emulation. It is an entirely different thing to have a
uniquely awesome experience and to express it in a mode that
evokes something similar in another.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Glen harps at us from time to time that "communication is an
illusion" (which he will likely demonstrate by correcting my
understanding of whatever he actually has said on the
topic). To the extent this assertion is true, then I am more
sympathetic with the idea of deep-fakes, etc. Maybe the only
difference between an imitation and an inspiration has to do
with the level of abstraction of the language being used.
Perhaps a poetry generator that actually generates strings of
complex abstractions which perhaps also is constrained by
poetic form, rhyme, alliteration, etc. IS doing the same thing
as a poet?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I ingest natural language generators more like an Oracle than
a source of information much less wisdom or insight.<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On May
15, 2022, at 9:32 AM, Prof David West
<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true"><profwest@fastmail.fm></a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Richard
Gabriel developed a program,
<b><i>Inkwell</i></b>, that writes poetry. It can
produce poems in any mode—haiku to free verse—and in
any author's style. He presented some of the poems
to the annual Warren Wilson (where he earned his MFA
in poetry) conference and they went through the
usual criticism process. He did not reveal that the
author of the poems was his software until the last
day. Because none of the participants at the
conference—professional poets, professors, other
graduate students—twigged on the fact that the poems
were composed by a computer instead of a human, he
asks if <b><i>Inkwell</i></b> passed the Turing
Test.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Richard's
last work at IBM was a DOD project that involved
detecting "threats" in social media postings, then
composing posts to deflect that threat. He
repurposed some of the natural language, machine
learning, capabilities of Inkwell for that project.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
next time you go on social media to generate a flash
mob to protest at the home of a supreme court
justice, don't be surprised if new posts,
indistinguishable in any and every way, from your
own, appear setting a new time or location for the
mob.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">As
impressive as Richard's work may be (is); no, I do
not think it resolves the fundamental issue. I still
maintain that the "languages" of math, algorithms,
logic, and similar formalisms are
<u>inadequate</u> for communication of most human
knowledge and experience. Metaphorically speaking,
they simply lack the bandwidth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Note
that I am making no claim with regard the
experiences or the ability to communicate—in some
language—those experiences. I am simply making a
claim of inadequacy/insufficiency for a particular
set of "languages." I am suggesting that it might be
possible to develop/evolve a language sufficient for
the task.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, May 14, 2022, at 9:13 PM,
Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="qt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ok, happy robots in hot tubs
doesn’t do it for you. How about some machine
learning generated poems?
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://sites.research.google/versebyverse/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sites.research.google/versebyverse/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On May 14, 2022, at 4:27
PM, Prof David West <a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<profwest@fastmail.fm></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Thank
you Marcus for the insightful comments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I
agree with you that the issue is one of
communication, and in some sense, one of
language. I would depart from your response
with regard the assertion that the language
must be precise; and further, the
implication that equations, computer
programs, or a simulacrum could constitute a
"language."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I
would claim that a language with perfect and
complete syntax and precise denotation will,
necessarily be insufficient to express and
communicate the vast majority of human
experiences and
knowledge/awareness/understanding. [This is
a more nuanced version of my frequently made
claim that, "science and math are only
useful for the simplest of problems."]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Humans
can, with reasonable efficacy, communicate
by means other than a precisely defined
language. Evocative and connotative poetry,
imagery, allusion, and metaphor, within a
rich body of context is far more powerful
than any formal language.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Consider
this alternative means of communication as a
"language," RBL (Right-brain language). It
seems reasonable to expect that RBL might be
improved and extended, with added rigor,
while avoiding the reductionism that
exemplifies formal, precisely defined
languages of math and science (left-brained
all). I can imagine a RBL-grounded
metaphysics and epistemology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">A
robust RBL might provide the communication
channel essential to communicate the
ineffable, the mystical, the
psychedelic—with one big caveat, the lack of
shared experience. RBL would be an evocative
language, and that which is invoked in each
individual must have sufficient experiential
overlap with others that "that which is
invoked" provides sufficient common context.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Or
one might assume Indra's Net where all
contextualizes all.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, May 13, 2022, at
5:33 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;overflow-wrap:break-word"
id="qt-qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal">If one wants to
translate subjective experience into a
narrative, or compare & contrast
experiences, then negotiating some language
is necessary. If one wants to carefully
compare experiences, then one must be
prepared to make the language precise. The
language could be “equations”, or some
computer program or some careful use of the
English language, or it could be some use of
a well-modelled physical system to mimic
another physical system, etc. But it is
must to be possible to create experiments
and evaluate the results in an objective,
reasoned way using a shared, deconstructable
language. This says nothing about the Big
Picture of the diverse things that happen in
the universe by itself, of course. But the
(presumably) narrow window we have on the
whole universe can be categorized into
knowledge we share – objective language, and
private experiences we don’t know how to
share, or are too large and complicated to
compress into a readable academic paper
(e.g. some massive generative learning
system). If one wants to go further and
say there are some experiences that can’t,
in principle, be shared, that’s fine, but
then shut up about it already! There’s
nothing to *<b>talk</b>* about because it is
private *<b>and</b>* subjective *<b>and</b>*
opaque.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225,
225,
225)">
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b>
Friday, May 13, 2022 4:51 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[FRIAM] quotes and questions<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I
will channel McGilchrist here, not
assert my own opinions/reasoning:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
argument you have posited is an
example of left-brain arrogance
<b>(NOT MARCUS ARROGANCE)</b> in
assuming that the left-brain
perception and apprehension, a totally
reductionist and representationalist
one, of the universe is the only
truth. All that holism,
connectedness, empathy, stochastic
dynamism, etc. that the right-brain
believes to be truth is woo-woo
nonsense and it can be ignored.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">There
is also the purely pragmatic problem,
ala the 19th century physics of Mach,
that if you had perfect knowledge of
every particle in the universe at time
1 you could predict with perfect
accuracy its state at time 2.
Replicating the totality of sensors
and the variable range of sensitivity
in context (e.g. changes in pressure
as the water cools as a function of
distance from jet), plus the
variability in the pattern of sensors
that are simultaneously reporting,
and, and, and</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Even
if true in principle, it is
pragmatically impossible.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On
Fri, May 13, 2022, at 3:47 PM, Marcus
Daniels wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
I am sure I have said it dozens of
times before: Create a robot </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
covered in sensors of similar pressure
and temperature sensitivity. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
Have it sit in the tub and use some
algorithm to learn the distribution </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
of the sensors and how relates to the
performance of its own motor </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
system. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
On May 13, 2022, at 3:36 PM, Prof
David West <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
</span></span><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"></span></span><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On
5/12/22 13:56, Jon Zingale wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
An interesting property of turbulence
is that it need not be a statement
about fluids, but rather a property
entailed by a system of equations. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
McGilchrist would assert that the
"reality" that is apprehended by the
left-brain is precisely that set of
abstract equations. However, the
right-brain apprehension of "reality"
is the totality of the experience of
sitting in the spa and feeling the
bubbles and jets caress your body.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
The latter is not expressible in
equations.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
On Fri, May 13, 2022, at 1:47 PM, glen
wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>>
On 5/12/22 10:32, Steve Smith wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>>
I personally don't think "Turbulent
Flow" is an oxymoron.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
Exactly! That's the point. By
denouncing negation, I'm ultimately </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
denouncing contradiction in all it's
horrifying forms. It's judo, not </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
karate.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>>
On 5/12/22 13:56, Jon Zingale wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>>
An interesting property of turbulence
is that it need not be a statement
about fluids, but rather a property
entailed by a system of equations. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
I'm a bit worried about all the
meaning packed into "property", </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
"entailed", and "system of equations".
But as long as we read </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
"equations" *very* generously, then
I'm down.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>>
On 5/12/22 19:54, Marcus Daniels
wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>>
Unitary operators are needed. Apply a
Trumping operator you get a Biden and
apply another one to get a Trump
back. To make this work a bunch of
ancillary bits are needed to record
all the wisdom that Trump destroys.
I am afraid we are dealing with a
dissipative system, though.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
IDK. The allowance of unitary
operators seems to be a restatement
of </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
orthogonality. In a world where no 2
variates/objects can be perfectly </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
separated, there can be no unitary
operators. (Or, perhaps every </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
operator has an error term. f(x) → y
</span></span><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Cambria Math
, serif;",serif">∪</span></span><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
ε) I haven't done the work. But </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
it seems further that we can define
logics without negation and logics </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
without currying. Can we define logics
with neither? What's the </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
expressive power of such a persnickety
thing? Is it that such a thing </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
can't exist? Or merely that our
language is incapable of talking
about </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
that thing with complete faith? Biden
is clearly not not(Trump), at </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
least if the object of interest is
"too damned {old, white, male}". If </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
that's the object, clearly Biden ≡
Trump and
</span></span><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Cambria Math
, serif;",serif">∀</span></span><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">x|x(Trump)
= x(Biden)
</span></span><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Cambria Math
, serif;",serif">∪</span></span><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
ε, where |ε| >>
|x(Trump)-x(Biden)|.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
-- </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss
snɟɟǝɹs˙</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / --
--- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group
listserv</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe
/ Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
archives: 5/2017 thru present </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / --
--- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group
listserv</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe
/ Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / --
--- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group
listserv</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe
/ Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
archives: 5/2017 thru present </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-. --- - / ...- .- .-..
.. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity
Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fridays 9a-12p Friday St.
Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">archives: 5/2017 thru
present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. ..
-.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity
Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fridays 9a-12p Friday St.
Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
bit.ly/virtualfriam<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">archives: 5/2017 thru
present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. /
-- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group
listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns
Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / --
--- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom bit.ly/virtualfriam<br>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom bit.ly/virtualfriam<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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