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<p>DaveW -</p>
<p>I'm glad you invoked Indra's net in this context. I'm not very
learned in Hindu or Buddhist texts or ideas beyond the westernized
superficial exposure that comes through various popular
literature/science so I don't trust much if anything I think I
know to refer to the original (or more aptly dependently
co-arising?) intent of that language.<br>
</p>
<p>However, this continuing theme, often re-introduced by you
(mostly) of the limits of language and in particular formal
languages and ideas such Universal Computation never gets old for
me.</p>
<p>I remember a perplexing conversation for both student and
professor in College when I took my budding knowledge/interest in
language and logic and philosophy into my physics classroom and
asked (assertively) of my professor "why cant we just invent a
language where only truth can be told? which was not far from the
open ended contemplation among the small cadre of upper division
physics and chemistry grad students that got thrown together in
advanced physics seminars (because there was no graduate physics
program). I say perplexing to both myself and the professor
simply because my question was so naive as to feel like a simple
statement of fact to me and to him I think it actually confronted
his own naivety in the opposite way.</p>
<p>A year or two ago I stumbled into Glen with his occasional
invocation of "the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle">holographic
principle</a>" in physics, by imposing my own "excess meaning"
(perhaps) into his use of this, wanting it to evoke the same thing
Dave's "All Contextualizes All" does. While it is a "truism"
that when you cut a (photographically captured interference
pattern) holograph into pieces, each piece carries the entire
hologram. Reductio ad-absurdum aside, it is the case that every
little bit of the holograph carries a little it of every bit of
the hologram, such that the quality/fidelity of the hologram is
divided up as one divides up the holograph. The emphasis in
Glen's use (as I thought I understood it sans my excess meaning)
was on the dimension-reduction-without-loss-of-fidelity aspect.<br>
</p>
<p>Despite the proofs (by example?) that any dimensionally embedded
CA could be implemented as a lower dimensional CA, I have always
been mildly suspicious of the holy grail of serialization as an
illusion. The phenotype-genotype duality exposes well the
"dependent origination" of program and execution environment,
albeit in a genetic/biological context. Embryology as well as
"childhood development" seems to be no more (or less) than a study
in "dependent co-arising". The scaffolding of complexity is what
I find fascinating and I think maybe is key to DaveW's harping
about LBL vs RBL and trying to "eff the ineffable.<br>
</p>
<p>A year ago maybe, SteveG reminded me of Hesse's last work "the
Glass Bead Game" which is often considered an allegorization of
Indra's Net in the modern (1949) idiom. I only made about 1/2 of
that correlation to this conversation at the time. Everything
unfolds in the fullness of time?<br>
</p>
<p>My own shriveled work with UNM/DTRA of over a decade ago on a
project called "pre-incident indicator analysis" was aiming at
implementing an Indra's Net of sorts as a "hairball of
interrelated event reports" which would be organized into what we
came to call a "faceted ontology" with the ontology speaking for
itself and the "facets" being in some sense, pre-computed
projections from the all-contextualizes-all hairball into a
lower-dimensional space of one of many known-to-be-useful
subject-matter-expertise areas. I still believe this to be the
problem of internet search with human-in-the-loop solutions in the
form (primarily) of Wikis.</p>
<p>I'm writing this in a mild-fever dream state of jet-lag and food
poisoning. At the Reykjavik airport we grabbed a plastic-wrapped
sandwich which it appears to have been the source of
food-poisoning. Mary suffered the brunt of it, but I am more
prone to acute jet-lag so we have been roughly equally miserable
over somewhat different if overlapping reasons. The point of
this point is the interesting (to me) way that dysfunction can
offer a certain clarity (thus fever-dream) that is seems similar
qualitatively to the dimension-reduction/projection of "the
holographic principle" or the creation/utilization of a "facet".
I forget the idiom used in the glass-bead-game precisely and don't
know the equivalent in Indra's Net terminology. </p>
<p>For those who know Roy Wroth, Matt and Janire, and Jenny Q...
they are all on our itenerary, though Jenny is traveling the wilds
of Alaska while we inhabit her sweet little renovated bit of a 18c
Farmhouse in Veesp for the month of June.</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/15/22 5:26 PM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:397a9205-2c65-4bad-8bab-22581722f747@www.fastmail.com">
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">Thank you Marcus for the
insightful comments.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I agree with you that the issue is
one of communication, and in some sense, one of language. I
would depart from your response with regard the assertion that
the language must be precise; and further, the implication that
equations, computer programs, or a simulacrum could constitute a
"language."<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I would claim that a language with
perfect and complete syntax and precise denotation will,
necessarily be insufficient to express and communicate the vast
majority of human experiences and
knowledge/awareness/understanding. [This is a more nuanced
version of my frequently made claim that, "science and math are
only useful for the simplest of problems."]<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Humans can, with reasonable
efficacy, communicate by means other than a precisely defined
language. Evocative and connotative poetry, imagery, allusion,
and metaphor, within a rich body of context is far more powerful
than any formal language.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Consider this alternative means of
communication as a "language," RBL (Right-brain language). It
seems reasonable to expect that RBL might be improved and
extended, with added rigor, while avoiding the reductionism that
exemplifies formal, precisely defined languages of math and
science (left-brained all). I can imagine a RBL-grounded
metaphysics and epistemology.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">A robust RBL might provide the
communication channel essential to communicate the ineffable,
the mystical, the psychedelic—with one big caveat, the lack of
shared experience. RBL would be an evocative language, and that
which is invoked in each individual must have sufficient
experiential overlap with others that "that which is invoked"
provides sufficient common context.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Or one might assume Indra's Net
where all contextualizes all.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Fri, May 13, 2022, at 5:33 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="overflow-wrap:break-word;">
<div class="qt-WordSection1">
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">If one wants to translate subjective
experience into a narrative, or compare & contrast
experiences, then negotiating some language is necessary.
If one wants to carefully compare experiences, then one must
be prepared to make the language precise. The language
could be “equations”, or some computer program or some
careful use of the English language, or it could be some use
of a well-modelled physical system to mimic another physical
system, etc. But it is must to be possible to create
experiments and evaluate the results in an objective,
reasoned way using a shared, deconstructable language.
This says nothing about the Big Picture of the diverse
things that happen in the universe by itself, of course.
But the (presumably) narrow window we have on the whole
universe can be categorized into knowledge we share –
objective language, and private experiences we don’t know
how to share, or are too large and complicated to compress
into a readable academic paper (e.g. some massive generative
learning system). If one wants to go further and say there
are some experiences that can’t, in principle, be shared,
that’s fine, but then shut up about it already! There’s
nothing to *<b>talk</b>* about because it is private *<b>and</b>*
subjective *<b>and</b>* opaque.<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225,
225,
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<div><b>From:</b> Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br>
</div>
<div> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2022 4:51 PM<br>
</div>
<div> <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] quotes and questions<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">I
will channel McGilchrist here, not assert my own
opinions/reasoning:</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">The
argument you have posited is an example of left-brain
arrogance <b>(NOT MARCUS ARROGANCE)</b> in assuming
that the left-brain perception and apprehension, a
totally reductionist and representationalist one, of
the universe is the only truth. All that holism,
connectedness, empathy, stochastic dynamism, etc. that
the right-brain believes to be truth is woo-woo
nonsense and it can be ignored.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">There
is also the purely pragmatic problem, ala the 19th
century physics of Mach, that if you had perfect
knowledge of every particle in the universe at time 1
you could predict with perfect accuracy its state at
time 2. Replicating the totality of sensors and the
variable range of sensitivity in context (e.g. changes
in pressure as the water cools as a function of
distance from jet), plus the variability in the
pattern of sensors that are simultaneously reporting,
and, and, and</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Even
if true in principle, it is pragmatically impossible.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">davew</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">On
Fri, May 13, 2022, at 3:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
I am sure I have said it dozens of times before:
Create a robot </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
covered in sensors of similar pressure and temperature
sensitivity. </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
Have it sit in the tub and use some algorithm to learn
the distribution </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
of the sensors and how relates to the performance of
its own motor </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
system. </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
On May 13, 2022, at 3:36 PM, Prof David West <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
</span></span><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Tahoma", sans-serif;"></span></span><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">On
5/12/22 13:56, Jon Zingale wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
An interesting property of turbulence is that it need
not be a statement about fluids, but rather a property
entailed by a system of equations. </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
McGilchrist would assert that the "reality" that is
apprehended by the left-brain is precisely that set of
abstract equations. However, the right-brain
apprehension of "reality" is the totality of the
experience of sitting in the spa and feeling the
bubbles and jets caress your body.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
The latter is not expressible in equations.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
davew</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
On Fri, May 13, 2022, at 1:47 PM, glen wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>
On 5/12/22 10:32, Steve Smith wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>
I personally don't think "Turbulent Flow" is an
oxymoron.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
Exactly! That's the point. By denouncing negation, I'm
ultimately </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
denouncing contradiction in all it's horrifying forms.
It's judo, not </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
karate.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>
On 5/12/22 13:56, Jon Zingale wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>
An interesting property of turbulence is that it need
not be a statement about fluids, but rather a property
entailed by a system of equations. </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
I'm a bit worried about all the meaning packed into
"property", </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
"entailed", and "system of equations". But as long as
we read </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
"equations" *very* generously, then I'm down.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>
On 5/12/22 19:54, Marcus Daniels wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>
Unitary operators are needed. Apply a Trumping
operator you get a Biden and apply another one to get
a Trump back. To make this work a bunch of
ancillary bits are needed to record all the wisdom
that Trump destroys. I am afraid we are dealing
with a dissipative system, though.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
IDK. The allowance of unitary operators seems to be a
restatement of </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
orthogonality. In a world where no 2 variates/objects
can be perfectly </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
separated, there can be no unitary operators. (Or,
perhaps every </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
operator has an error term. f(x) → y </span></span><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Cambria Math", serif;">∪</span></span><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> ε)
I haven't done the work. But </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
it seems further that we can define logics without
negation and logics </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
without currying. Can we define logics with neither?
What's the </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
expressive power of such a persnickety thing? Is it
that such a thing </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
can't exist? Or merely that our language is incapable
of talking about </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
that thing with complete faith? Biden is clearly not
not(Trump), at </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
least if the object of interest is "too damned {old,
white, male}". If </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
that's the object, clearly Biden ≡ Trump and </span></span><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Cambria Math", serif;">∀</span></span><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">x|x(Trump)
= x(Biden) </span></span><span style=""><span
class="font" style="font-family:"Cambria
Math", serif;">∪</span></span><span style=""><span
class="font" style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
ε, where |ε| >> |x(Trump)-x(Biden)|.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
-- </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . /
-.-. --- -.. .</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>> <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
archives: 5/2017 thru present </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>> <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . /
-.-. --- -.. .</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . /
-.-. --- -.. .</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
archives: 5/2017 thru present </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .<br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
</div>
<div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
</div>
<div>un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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