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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/15/22 10:42 AM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:9BE71004-FF3E-4CB2-AB5B-AE2B0CEB0BF5@snoutfarm.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
If you are right then deep fakes, online or in meat space, will
fail.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote>
<p><i>you don't have to fool all of the people all of the time...
</i><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I find Gabriel's poetry rather deficient (not that I am an
expert, so perhaps it is mere taste) and Inkwell's even moreso,
though in response to this thread I read a number from his
collection "100 Poems Imitating 100 Translations" which are
described as "responses" to 100 classic Japanese poems which is a
tradition in poetry (to write poem in response or homage to
another poem) and found them quite pleasing and insightful. It
felt that his poems were *inspired* by the originals, though
without the originals at-hand I'm not sure how much he was
inspired and how much was in fact "imitation" as advertised. If
it was the latter then I suppose I'm much more impressed with what
the original did than what Gabriel did by "imitating" the
originals without breaking them.<br>
</p>
<p>I am not sure that automatic * generation tools can do anything
*but* imitate and emulate, by their very construction? Gabriel's
title invoking "imitating" suggests to me that his Inkwell (at
least) aspires to do no more than imitate. It is a fun parlor
trick to create an imitation that "can pass" in polite company.
The "creative process" is subjectively something different from
imitation or emulation. It is an entirely different thing to
have a uniquely awesome experience and to express it in a mode
that evokes something similar in another.<br>
</p>
<p>Glen harps at us from time to time that "communication is an
illusion" (which he will likely demonstrate by correcting my
understanding of whatever he actually has said on the topic). To
the extent this assertion is true, then I am more sympathetic with
the idea of deep-fakes, etc. Maybe the only difference between
an imitation and an inspiration has to do with the level of
abstraction of the language being used. Perhaps a poetry
generator that actually generates strings of complex abstractions
which perhaps also is constrained by poetic form, rhyme,
alliteration, etc. IS doing the same thing as a poet? <br>
</p>
<p>I ingest natural language generators more like an Oracle than a
source of information much less wisdom or insight.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:9BE71004-FF3E-4CB2-AB5B-AE2B0CEB0BF5@snoutfarm.com">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On May 15, 2022, at 9:32 AM, Prof David
West <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"><profwest@fastmail.fm></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<title></title>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Richard Gabriel developed a
program, <b><i>Inkwell</i></b>, that writes poetry. It can
produce poems in any mode—haiku to free verse—and in any
author's style. He presented some of the poems to the annual
Warren Wilson (where he earned his MFA in poetry) conference
and they went through the usual criticism process. He did
not reveal that the author of the poems was his software
until the last day. Because none of the participants at the
conference—professional poets, professors, other graduate
students—twigged on the fact that the poems were composed by
a computer instead of a human, he asks if
<b><i>Inkwell</i></b> passed the Turing Test.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Richard's last work at IBM was
a DOD project that involved detecting "threats" in social
media postings, then composing posts to deflect that threat.
He repurposed some of the natural language, machine
learning, capabilities of Inkwell for that project.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">The next time you go on social
media to generate a flash mob to protest at the home of a
supreme court justice, don't be surprised if new posts,
indistinguishable in any and every way, from your own,
appear setting a new time or location for the mob.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">As impressive as Richard's
work may be (is); no, I do not think it resolves the
fundamental issue. I still maintain that the "languages" of
math, algorithms, logic, and similar formalisms are
<u>inadequate</u> for communication of most human knowledge
and experience. Metaphorically speaking, they simply lack
the bandwidth.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Note that I am making no claim
with regard the experiences or the ability to communicate—in
some language—those experiences. I am simply making a claim
of inadequacy/insufficiency for a particular set of
"languages." I am suggesting that it might be possible to
develop/evolve a language sufficient for the task.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Sat, May 14, 2022, at 9:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="">
<div>Ok, happy robots in hot tubs doesn’t do it for you.
How about some machine learning generated poems?
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><a href="https://sites.research.google/versebyverse/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sites.research.google/versebyverse/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On May 14, 2022, at 4:27 PM, Prof David West
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"><profwest@fastmail.fm></a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Thank you Marcus for
the insightful comments.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I agree with you that
the issue is one of communication, and in some
sense, one of language. I would depart from your
response with regard the assertion that the language
must be precise; and further, the implication that
equations, computer programs, or a simulacrum could
constitute a "language."<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I would claim that a
language with perfect and complete syntax and
precise denotation will, necessarily be insufficient
to express and communicate the vast majority of
human experiences and
knowledge/awareness/understanding. [This is a more
nuanced version of my frequently made claim that,
"science and math are only useful for the simplest
of problems."]<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Humans can, with
reasonable efficacy, communicate by means other than
a precisely defined language. Evocative and
connotative poetry, imagery, allusion, and metaphor,
within a rich body of context is far more powerful
than any formal language.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Consider this
alternative means of communication as a "language,"
RBL (Right-brain language). It seems reasonable to
expect that RBL might be improved and extended, with
added rigor, while avoiding the reductionism that
exemplifies formal, precisely defined languages of
math and science (left-brained all). I can imagine a
RBL-grounded metaphysics and epistemology.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">A robust RBL might
provide the communication channel essential to
communicate the ineffable, the mystical, the
psychedelic—with one big caveat, the lack of shared
experience. RBL would be an evocative language, and
that which is invoked in each individual must have
sufficient experiential overlap with others that
"that which is invoked" provides sufficient common
context.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Or one might assume
Indra's Net where all contextualizes all.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Fri, May 13, 2022, at 5:33 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt-qt"
style="overflow-wrap:break-word;">
<div class="qt-qt-WordSection1">
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal">If one wants to
translate subjective experience into a
narrative, or compare & contrast
experiences, then negotiating some language is
necessary. If one wants to carefully compare
experiences, then one must be prepared to make
the language precise. The language could be
“equations”, or some computer program or some
careful use of the English language, or it could
be some use of a well-modelled physical system
to mimic another physical system, etc. But it
is must to be possible to create experiments and
evaluate the results in an objective, reasoned
way using a shared, deconstructable language.
This says nothing about the Big Picture of the
diverse things that happen in the universe by
itself, of course. But the (presumably) narrow
window we have on the whole universe can be
categorized into knowledge we share – objective
language, and private experiences we don’t know
how to share, or are too large and complicated
to compress into a readable academic paper (e.g.
some massive generative learning system). If
one wants to go further and say there are some
experiences that can’t, in principle, be shared,
that’s fine, but then shut up about it
already! There’s nothing to *<b>talk</b>*
about because it is private *<b>and</b>*
subjective *<b>and</b>* opaque.<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225,
225,
225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;">
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<div><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2022 4:51 PM<br>
</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] quotes and
questions<br>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">I will channel McGilchrist
here, not assert my own
opinions/reasoning:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">The argument you have
posited is an example of left-brain
arrogance
<b>(NOT MARCUS ARROGANCE)</b> in
assuming that the left-brain perception
and apprehension, a totally reductionist
and representationalist one, of the
universe is the only truth. All that
holism, connectedness, empathy,
stochastic dynamism, etc. that the
right-brain believes to be truth is
woo-woo nonsense and it can be ignored.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">There is also the purely
pragmatic problem, ala the 19th century
physics of Mach, that if you had perfect
knowledge of every particle in the
universe at time 1 you could predict
with perfect accuracy its state at time
2. Replicating the totality of sensors
and the variable range of sensitivity in
context (e.g. changes in pressure as the
water cools as a function of distance
from jet), plus the variability in the
pattern of sensors that are
simultaneously reporting, and, and, and</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">Even if true in principle,
it is pragmatically impossible.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">davew</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">On Fri, May 13, 2022, at
3:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> I am sure I have said
it dozens of times before: Create a
robot </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> covered in sensors of
similar pressure and temperature
sensitivity. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> Have it sit in the tub
and use some algorithm to learn the
distribution </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> of the sensors and how
relates to the performance of its own
motor </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> system. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> On May 13, 2022,
at 3:36 PM, Prof David West <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>
</span></span></span><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Tahoma",
sans-serif;"></span></span></span><span
style=""><span class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">On 5/12/22 13:56, Jon
Zingale wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> An interesting
property of turbulence is that it need
not be a statement about fluids, but
rather a property entailed by a system
of equations. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> McGilchrist would
assert that the "reality" that is
apprehended by the left-brain is
precisely that set of abstract
equations. However, the right-brain
apprehension of "reality" is the
totality of the experience of sitting in
the spa and feeling the bubbles and jets
caress your body.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> The latter is not
expressible in equations.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> davew</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> On Fri, May
13, 2022, at 1:47 PM, glen wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>>> On 5/12/22
10:32, Steve Smith wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>>> I
personally don't think "Turbulent Flow"
is an oxymoron.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> Exactly!
That's the point. By denouncing
negation, I'm ultimately </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> denouncing
contradiction in all it's horrifying
forms. It's judo, not </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> karate.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>>> On 5/12/22
13:56, Jon Zingale wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>>> An
interesting property of turbulence is
that it need not be a statement about
fluids, but rather a property entailed
by a system of equations. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> I'm a bit
worried about all the meaning packed
into "property", </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> "entailed",
and "system of equations". But as long
as we read </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> "equations"
*very* generously, then I'm down.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>>> On 5/12/22
19:54, Marcus Daniels wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>>> Unitary
operators are needed. Apply a Trumping
operator you get a Biden and apply
another one to get a Trump back. To
make this work a bunch of ancillary bits
are needed to record all the wisdom that
Trump destroys. I am afraid we are
dealing with a dissipative system,
though.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> IDK. The
allowance of unitary operators seems to
be a restatement of </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> orthogonality.
In a world where no 2 variates/objects
can be perfectly </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> separated,
there can be no unitary operators. (Or,
perhaps every </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> operator has
an error term. f(x) → y
</span></span></span><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Cambria
Math", serif;">∪</span></span></span><span
style=""><span class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> ε) I haven't done the
work. But </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> it seems
further that we can define logics
without negation and logics </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> without
currying. Can we define logics with
neither? What's the </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> expressive
power of such a persnickety thing? Is it
that such a thing </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> can't exist?
Or merely that our language is incapable
of talking about </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> that thing
with complete faith? Biden is clearly
not not(Trump), at </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> least if the
object of interest is "too damned {old,
white, male}". If </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> that's the
object, clearly Biden ≡ Trump and
</span></span></span><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Cambria
Math", serif;">∀</span></span></span><span
style=""><span class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">x|x(Trump) = x(Biden) </span></span></span><span
style=""><span class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Cambria
Math", serif;">∪</span></span></span><span
style=""><span class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> ε, where |ε|
>> |x(Trump)-x(Biden)|.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> -- </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs
ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> -. --- - /
...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . /
-.-. --- -.. .</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> FRIAM Applied
Complexity Group listserv</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> Fridays 9a-12p
Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> archives:
5/2017 thru present </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>>> 1/2003 thru
6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> -. --- - / ...- .-
.-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> FRIAM Applied
Complexity Group listserv</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> Fridays 9a-12p
Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> archives: 5/2017
thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">>> 1/2003 thru
6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> -. --- - / ...- .-
.-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> FRIAM Applied
Complexity Group listserv</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> Fridays 9a-12p Friday
St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> archives: 5/2017 thru
present </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ...
. / -.-. --- -.. .<br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
</div>
<div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe /
Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
</div>
<div>un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div><span>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-.
... . / -.-. --- -.. .</span><br>
</div>
<div><span>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><br>
</div>
<div><span>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe /
Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom bit.ly/virtualfriam</span><br>
</div>
<div><span>un/subscribe
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span><br>
</div>
<div><span>FRIAM-COMIC
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><br>
</div>
<div><span>archives: 5/2017 thru present
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span><br>
</div>
<div><span> 1/2003 thru 6/2021
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . /
-.-. --- -.. .<br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
</div>
<div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
</div>
<div>un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<span>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .</span><br>
<span>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><br>
<span>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom bit.ly/virtualfriam</span><br>
<span>un/subscribe
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span><br>
<span>FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><br>
<span>archives: 5/2017 thru present
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span><br>
<span> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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