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<p>Carl -</p>
<p>I think your point is very well taken, that *much* of what
renders out as hypocrisy is often a reflection of overly ambitious
aspirations. However it IS often easier to hold those aspirations
for *others* and then criticize *their* failure which is the more
traditional stylization of "hypocrisy". As I age, my aspirations
wane but so does my ability and I often wonder at the ratio of my
reach/grasp, whether it is convergent on 1:1 or more likely
radically divergent. At death, I suppose, the denominator goes to
0 in the limit?<br>
</p>
<p>Glen -</p>
<p>Your point about whole/part conflation is interesting. I do
think that this conflation can be very problematic, but I also
find it interesting that there *might* be something to it as well
(independent of the specifics of hypocrisy). As I've tried to
understand more of the implications of holarchies and
heterarchies, I sense that the evolutionary consequence/mechanism
of "stacking" holons into holarchies is complemented by the
crossing of those lines with different levels in the *archy. One
version of these heterarchical crossing of levels would seem to be
an example of what is implied when we try to attribute qualities
of a subsystem to a supersystem? Are these always and entirely a
false equivalence/conflation? Do the qualities of a cell
re-present themselves at the organ or organism level? The
qualities of an individual in a population? A species in an
ecosystem?<br>
</p>
<p>Nick -</p>
<p>Your point about "a Unified System" is very aligned with what I'm
trying to gesture above with my *archy points with Glen. I'd
like to understand more about your own perspective on these
ideas... though I don't know where to start. I recently took a
deep dive into Bateson via Charlton's "Understanding Bateson" and
am now elbow deep in Deacon's "Incomplete Nature". I feel that
my own adherence to the "hard sciences" steered me away from some
important and deep thinkers (e.g. Bateson) and that history is now
beginning to support some of their more intuitive and less
rigorous claims... a continued variation on the "effing the
ineffable" discussion here I suppose?<br>
</p>
<p>Sarbajit -</p>
<p>I can only (barely) imagine what the US govt and maybe more to
the point, the US information-industrial complex must feel like to
members of non-Western cultures/countries. I am not a fan of
abortion nor of much of Western Medicine, though I *am* a strong
proponent of women's rights including right-to-choose to terminate
a pregnancy. Without following the threads of your specific
implications, I would not be surprised to find that your
assertions about abortificants being toxic, even carcinogenic were
spot-on. I believe that *many* (if not all) Medicines (Western
and otherwise) *are* toxic (see virtually all forms of cancer
remedy) but represent a presumed "lesser evil". A great deal of
the abortions promoted in our (Western) culture, at best, qualify
(to me) as "lesser evils" which is a sad statement about our
culture... but in my value system, nevertheless "lesser" if still
tragic.</p>
<p>While I am often shocked by some of your statements and claims, I
can attribute a lot of that to the very *valuable* cultural
parallax you offer when you make those statements here... We are
a fairly monocultural group, even *with* yours and a few other
voices here... I appreciate the added spectral spread your
offerings induce.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/12/22 1:23 PM, Carl Tollander
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAFi2r0grp-mFfTRYc8eANdNM=zicmn5_m3QbAVxd9d9q6EpSDA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Well, hypocrisy is not an argument. Our reach
exceeds our grasp, is all.
<div>C</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:53
PM glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">What's
a bit bizarre about Sarbajit's accusation of hypocrisy is the
overwhelming diversity of US Government components. It would
make sense to accuse a single agency, say, the FDA of
something like hypocrisy. But even there, we have different
regimes ran by different people and there's a turnover of
individuals within the affiliated organizations.<br>
<br>
I suppose this is the heart of the "stare decisis" arguments
against willy-nilly overturning "precedent" and cross
administration changes like Trump rejecting the nuclear deal
with Iran. It reminds me of the Citizens United ruling and the
false equivalence between national debt/deficit and household
debt.<br>
<br>
Can a materially open thing like a (somewhat) representative
government be *hypocritical*? What is hypocrisy, really?<br>
<br>
<br>
On 7/3/22 18:23, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<br>
> Sarbajit,<br>
> <br>
> Could you post materials on the Guttmacher dispute and
the science behind it?<br>
> <br>
> I am guessing that this is all new to us.<br>
> <br>
> As to hypocrisy, the term is only appropriate to a
unified system, usually a person. But perhaps the metaphor
works the other way around. Perhaps people are just badly
integrated systems, hence sin in all its form, deception,
hypocrisy, loving thy neighbor too well, and all of that! So
instead of saying that governments are sort of like people, we
might say that people are sort of like governments.<br>
> <br>
> N<br>
> <br>
> Nick Thompson<br>
> <br>
> <a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a>><br>
> <br>
> <a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a>
<<a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a>><br>
> <br>
> *From:* Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
*On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy<br>
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM<br>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] self-care<br>
> <br>
> The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.<br>
> <br>
> For decades they have been desperately promoting pill
based self induced abortions as "safe" abortions in India and
Latin America through their puppets like the Guttmacher
Institiute and by using misrepresentations and outright lies.<br>
> <br>
> These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and
Guttmacher was caught red handed by us for using fake accounts
on Wikipedia to shape the "self induced abortion" article to
depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We got Guttmacher
delisted in India for about a year, but they made their way
back through the USAID RMNCHA programs used to bribe foreign
government servants to shape policy<br>
> <br>
> Sarbajit<br>
> <br>
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen <<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning
RvW, this popped up in my feed:<br>
> <br>
> How to Give Yourself an Abortion<br>
> <a
href="https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion</a>
<<a
href="https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion</a>><br>
> <br>
> I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of
energy was added to my oscillators with the whole "horse
dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm poking fun both at the
people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the people who
used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this
post came up this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home
with the patient after surgery: <a
href="https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11</a>
<<a
href="https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11</a>>.
(Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)<br>
> <br>
> Nick is fond of asking people whether they take
multivitamins or not. And while it's true most experts claim
that *healthy* people just pee them out. *Who* amongst us
actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even mean?
That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy",
despite the excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck,
and lower back? Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines?
Despite my now abated follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem*
healthy because I can do pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints
without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job with a bit of
time for hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't
reflect what I feel on the inside, which is like a sick puppy
where the slightest bad event would topple me into the
"disabled" category. "Healthy" is at best a misinformation
concept, at worst a malinformation concept: <a
href="https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf</a><br>
> <<a
href="https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf</a>><br>
> <br>
> Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading
self-help books, cutting out magazine ads for their "vision
board", or self-administering veterinary de-fetus pills, but
there's something important, here. Fad diets, bottled water,
alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral failure,
etc. all point at that thing, whatever that thing is.<br>
> <br>
> In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ<br>
<br>
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