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<p>Smiths, et alii ...</p>
<p>I find this thread-bit a nice complement to the point Marcus made
many weeks ago... confronting my assumption that
consciousness/intelligence/creativity (can't remember precisely
which subject was in play at the moment) was "anything more than
imitation". <i><br>
</i></p>
<p><i> "All Art is Derivative"</i>?</p>
<p>I think there is something afoot here which I can only (because I
lack imagination, and even when I notice I'm being derivative, I
cannot help but continue?) characterize (gesturally) what I think
Terrence Deacon is going on about with his neologisms: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/deacon/">"Ententional"
and "Absential" and by extension "Teleodynamic"</a>. <br>
</p>
<p>I could blather on for paragraphs with my weak grasp of what he
is going on about, but instead will leave it... "¿absent?". I
believe this is in your (Eric's) Wheelhouse, rhyming with
Morowitz's "Pruning".<br>
</p>
<p>As I am wont to do, I happen to be reading simultaneously with
Deacon, a work of fiction by Ruth Ozeki, "The Book of Form and
Emptiness" where one of her characters (a wheelchair bound
homeless poet) instructs her protagonist with:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>"Poetry is a problem of form and emptiness, Ze moment i put
one word onto an empty page, I have created a problem for
myself. Ze poem that emerges is form trying to find a solution
to my problem."</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>It is a ¿coincidence? that these two books crawling through me
right now are on the same subject in some sense? All of this has
bubble-sorted "<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/physics/biological-physics-and-soft-matter-physics/origin-and-nature-life-earth-emergence-fourth-geosphere?format=HB">The
Origin and Nature of Life</a>" to the top of my stack, about 5
years overdue. I must read faster, or more in parallel or allow
my dopple-selves across the quantum-multiverse to merge
more-better?<br>
<i></i></p>
<p>Regarding your (Cody's) original assertion, I do believe that
there is a reach/grasp relationship. True creativity (as if such
a thing can be declared) might seem to be in the reach more than
the grasp. AI still seems to be *grasping* what humans (the only
sentience we are familiar with) has deigned/considered/imagined to
*reach for*?</p>
<p>I will respond to Eric's astute point about
imagination/creativity in (science) fiction under separate cover.</p>
<p>- yet another Smith<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/20/22 3:18 PM, David Eric Smith
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8DB06286-037A-4E7E-802A-6FBADFA38519@santafe.edu">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
I feel like this is yet another reminder that humans, by and
large, lack imagination.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The reason robots in sci-fi are flat and empty is
because sci-fi is re-telling Descartes’s assertion that
everything except humans (probably, sotto voce, except him) are
flat and affectless. Maybe even more than machines are that, we
imprint that on the paradigm of machine. It’s just the age-old
thing of people needing to feel singular and important, and
using vehicles like religion to systematize their neediness.
That sci-fi prides itself on being imaginative, while
re-telling the same small portfolio of bible stories and other
similar sources is human Dunning-Krugerness on display.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">A world free of all that corruption probably has
lots of dimensions of possibility that humans will just drive by
without noticing because their minds are elsewhere.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Of course, each of your detailed points I recognize
is true and a good one,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Eric</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:05 AM, cody dooderson
<<a href="mailto:d00d3rs0n@gmail.com"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">d00d3rs0n@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">It is surprising that AI is so creative.
Many science fiction robots were calculated but
uncreative. They are like Data from star trek,
basically a calculator with very little creative
potential. But it seems like AI, as it develops, is
actually more creative than its human counterparts. </div>
<div class="">Here are a few examples that come to mind.
AlphaGo beat the grandmaster, Lee Sedol, with moves
that the grandmaster had never seen before. The art
world is seeing some very cool stuff coming out of
trained neural networks like Dall-e2*. In the Sony
article, they talk about a trick where the AI put a
wheel on the grass to initiate a controlled slide. Do
you think that modern Neural networks will give any
insight into the nature of creativity?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">* Dall-e2 <a
href="https://www.reddit.com/r/weirddalle/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.reddit.com/r/weirddalle/</a> </div>
<br class="" clear="all">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Cody Smith</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 20, 2022
at 7:19 AM Roger Critchlow <<a
href="mailto:rec@elf.org"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">rec@elf.org</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Two articles from MIT Tech Review.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.technologyreview.com%2f2022%2f07%2f19%2f1056176%2fsonys-racing-ai-destroyed-its-human-competitors-by-being-nice-and-fast%2f&c=E,1,sW_uqrRPOXBSOBOKyAZBXmUeEC_gAg6bC8gm1INQST-ojGhCL2hs6hZ0n3OXOMaE29ZvHzCImJ-clJq2975O6Z7VJXWF-auEZX7UaV_rfFo7jCerKI3uQrTt&typo=1"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/19/1056176/sonys-racing-ai-destroyed-its-human-competitors-by-being-nice-and-fast/</a><br
class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Training AI drivers for Gran Turismo
racing, it turns out that they can learn to
physically drive faster than people, but they're
too aggressive to win head to head races because
they drive the competition off the road. So you
need to train them to observe the norms of the
competition, by including penalties for crashes,
bumps, cut-offs, etc, into the training. They
still drive faster than people, and the way they
drive is a bit disturbing to watch.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">[So if you were training AI drivers
for political races, would the norms come from
established law or where the voters could be
persuaded to mark their polls?]</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.technologyreview.com%2f2022%2f07%2f20%2f1056219%2fweed-influencer-and-scientist-feud-over-cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome%2f&c=E,1,V2LEaPWTwH3T7VFjGfU7bcnhh0onNBmvFckXpaLoRhfL1fS-X5j4_shbXCArwd2na4pUY52IMOtyZK5VLSHLt7YD7qfxOsYsys64-ZDOhZIodihFmXY1Zg,,&typo=1"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056219/weed-influencer-and-scientist-feud-over-cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome/</a><br
class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The scientist and the instagram
influencer attempt to study the genetic causes
of CHS (cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome) and
the influencer blows up the study when she
declares that the scientist is a shill on her
channel. Ah the joys of decision making with
uncertainty and cognitive bias.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
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