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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/6/22 6:17 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0639A1D5-9F95-4F39-814A-8693C4255677@snoutfarm.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Why model some complex (if meaningless) phenomena if it can driven
toward something less complex? I mean, jeez, isn’t DJT’s patchy
and inconsistent use of bronzer proof that people don’t really
care about detail?
</blockquote>
<p>I am often perplexed by this... I can't tell if DJT
cluelessly/arrogantly bronzed up with his own tiny fists or if he
had a professional makeup person go to the effort to make him look
that bad... my father's comment about Rodeo Clowns was: "you
have to be really good to look that bad"... <br>
</p>
<p>There are other features of DJTs behaviour that suggests it
really is arrogant cluelessness, but then there is *also* clearly
a "method to his madness" on many levels... He is the ultimate
"tool" which is fascinating because he has created (or groomed) so
many "tools" himself... if one must grant him "genius" it is
rooted somehow in his ability to play both ends against the middle
in so many dimensions... <br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0639A1D5-9F95-4F39-814A-8693C4255677@snoutfarm.com">I
watched this black comedy last night. _Killer Joe_. It predated
MAGA. It nicely captures how low-dimensional culture can be.
What’s needed in these circumstances is a complete deconstruction
and deletion of empathy. Ask what rats would do. Oh it takes me
back.</blockquote>
I do like me a good "black comedy"... I recently enjoyed Woody
Harrelson as _The Man from Toronto_... McConaughey also rarely
disappoints.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0639A1D5-9F95-4F39-814A-8693C4255677@snoutfarm.com">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Sep 6, 2022, at 11:15 AM, Steve
Smith <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"><sasmyth@swcp.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p>I can't find/recall the exact quote, but you made
something of a convert of me when we were discussing
whether creativity/learning was *anything more* than
complex/elaborate mimicry.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Crypto-anythings (closeted "whatevers") have worked
this in a similar way to spies, but where there is a
little more complicity by the non-cryptos who may well
be collaborating in the "closeting", in the spirit of
"don't ask, don't tell"...
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>"I/he/she/it/ze can pass" is the bar... it is OK if
some/many of the observers "suspect" the true nature but
the community shares the consequences of a community
member proving to be "less than fully-compliant".
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Whitelash supremacists' dog-whistles are a good
example. I don't want to think that my neighbor is
part of that movement, so some of the slightly "off
color" things she might say across the fence, I am
inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to... so if
she notice I don't respond to her dog whistles, she
continues to whistle them under her breath now and then,
just to soothe her inner racist/mysXinist and maybe keep
checking if I maybe have been "converted", and I
continue to (hopefully) ignore it and keep bringing her
casseroles (laced with xanax) when her husband is
recovering from his latest self-inflicted gunshot
wound...
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>In this case, we are *all* "acting as if"... until
someone gets converted to "radical honesty" and that
just adds another level of indirection of (self/other)
deception.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/6/22 8:37 AM, Marcus
Daniels wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BYAPR11MB3830FED21F24C337F7E7F1EAC57E9@BYAPR11MB3830.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"
class="elementToProof">
I had to do some cybersecurity training and it was set
up so that all the choices one could make led to the
same outcome. The point was to understand the
properties of the paths, not the outcome.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"
class="elementToProof">
While that wisdom might be of some value in some other
situation, often there is no discernable difference
between the nuance in a social rule and variation that
arises due to novelty or ambiguity of circumstances.
The signal to noise ratio just isn't high enough to
justify the extra precision. The actors in this
training could have been interpreted as quietly
demonstrating concern rather than neglect. One could
imagine a cartel boss would not want to wait for a
reasonable number of outliers before taking action.
After all the cartel boss is a criminal and not
concerned with fairness. An experienced undercover
cop knows she needs to mimic the expected distribution
very carefully, and that even if she does mimic it
very carefully her life is still in danger.<br>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"
class="elementToProof">
Marcus<br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
on behalf of glen
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><gepropella@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 6, 2022 7:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated
moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] more structure-based
mind-reading</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span
style="font-size:11pt;">
<div class="PlainText">Well, Steve's targeting of
"feeling included" does target "understanding".
I'd argue that the spies don't understand the
communities they infiltrate. Even deep
undercover or method acting doesn't provide
understanding. I argue that any bad faith actor
like a spy or "acting while cynical" has a
reductive objective as their target. What was
interesting about the concept of bad faith was
Sartre's suggestion that the deep undercover
operator who finally *does* begin to identify
with the community they've infiltrated is the
interesting edge case. That's the cusp of
understanding.<br>
<br>
I suppose I'm making a similar argument to
EricC's argument for "belief", which I call
"dispositional". If you don't act on your
belief, then you don't actually believe that
thing. So, an undercover cop who infiltrates a
drug cartel but refuses to Necklace a local
do-gooder just doesn't understand what it means
to be in the cartel. They can't understand. And
they shouldn't understand. The spy is there for
a more specific objective, not understanding.<br>
<br>
One of those more specific objectives might be
*prediction*. In simulation and [x|i]ML, there's
a stark distinction between predictive versus
explanatory power. Ideally, strong explanatory
power provides predictive power. But
practically, 80/20, reductive prediction is
easier, faster, and more important. The excess
meaning is swept under the rug of variation or
noise. At raves, a reductive objective is harm
reduction. Sure, it would be fantastic to teach
all the kids pharmaco[kinetics|dynamics] and
chemistry ... as well as psychology and
neuroscience. But the harm reduction tent is not
really there to get into the kids' minds. The
objective isn't understanding. It's a reductive
focus on dampening the edge cases.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 9/3/22 08:47, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
> The claim is that there is all this
diversity in subcultures and that the only way
to understand them is to participate in them.
If it is possible to fake it, and I think it is,
then that raises doubts about the claim. That
is what spies specialize in.<br>
> <br>
>> On Sep 2, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Steve Smith
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<sasmyth@swcp.com></a> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> I have spent most of my life avoiding
"acting while cynical"... I have *felt* cynical
about a lot of things, and Marcus' description
of a lot of things speaks to my "inner cynic"
but I haven't spent much time being *harmed* by
engaging in "performative activities while
feeling cynical about them". If I dig a hole
it is either because *I* need a hole, or someone
else *needs* a whole, and only rarely do I help
someone dig a hole as a team/trust/affinity
building exercise unless the There are too
many holes in the world that *want* digging to
spend much effort en-performance.<br>
>><br>
>> I've never felt particulary "included"
in any social circle and I have seen that a
little bit of "Performative Grease" might have
helped this square peg fit more-better in the
round holes it encountered, but generally I
simply avoided those activities and drifted
further and further out. That is not to say I
haven't *tried* to be a good sport and do what
others were doing on the off chance that it
would actually be something that worked for me,
but generally not.<br>
>><br>
>> BTW... there seems to be some inverted
general usage of "square-peg/round-hole",
drilling a round hole and then driving a
square(ish) peg into it guarantees a good tight
fit... it is preferred to round peg-round hole
in traditional joinery.<br>
>><br>
>>> On 9/2/22 8:17 AM, glen wrote:<br>
>>> OK. But the affinity and "inner
self" alluded to by the phrase "faking it" is
nothing but a personality momentum, a build-up
of past behaviors, like a fly-wheel spun up by
all the previous affinities and faking of it. We
faked it in our mom's womb, faked it as babies,
faked it as children on the playground or in
class, etc. all the way up to the last time we
faked it digging ditches or pair programming in
Java.<br>
>>><br>
>>> The only difference between feeling
an affinity and engaging in a new faking it
exercise is the extent to which the new
collaboration is similar to the previous
collaborations. As both Steve and Dave point
out, spend enough time living in a world and
you'll grow affine to that world (and the world
will grow affine to you).<br>
>>><br>
>>> I suppose it's reasonable to posit
a spectrum (or a higher dim space) on which some
people have particularly inertial fly-wheels and
others have more easily disturbed things that
store less energy. Of the Big 5, my guess would
be neuroticism would be most inertial. Perhaps
openness and agreeableness would be the least
inertial.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>> On 9/2/22 05:35, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
>>>> There are many common tasks
that parties could direct their attention
toward. This happens at companies, prison
cafeterias, and churches. That it is grounded
in a particular way doesn't make it any truer,
or anyone more committed to it. We are often
forced to participate in cultures we don't care
about, and faking it is an important skill.
Just because someone sweats or gets calluses or
tolerates others' inappropriate emotions in some
circle of people, doesn't mean there is any
affinity toward that circle. Oh look, he dug a
hole. I dug a hole. Sure, I'd do those kind
of performative activities if I were a
politician, as I bet there are people who think
this way.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>>>> From: Friam <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> On
Behalf Of glen<br>
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022
12:06 AM<br>
>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<friam@redfish.com></a><br>
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] more
structure-based mind-reading<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> And, of course, there is no
such thing except appearance. What could it
possibly mean to say that an appearance of a
bond exists, but no actual bond exists?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On September 1, 2022 7:29:45 PM
PDT, Marcus Daniels <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<marcus@snoutfarm.com></a> wrote:<br>
>>>>> If you want to create the
appearance of a bond where none exists, get to
work. Once one recognizes the nature of work
it is easy.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Sep 1, 2022, at 6:25 PM,
Prof David West <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<profwest@fastmail.fm></a> wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> From glen: "If you want to
share values with some arbitrary shmoe, then get
to<br>
>>>>> *work*. Build
something or cooperate on a common task.
Talking,<br>
>>>>> communicating, is
inadequate at best, disinfo at worst."<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> This is kinda the whole
point of Participant Observation at the core of
cultural anthropology. The premise is you cannot
truly understand a culture until you live it.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Of course, there is still a
boundary, a separation, between the
anthropologist and those with whom she
interacts, but sweat, calluses, blood, and
emotions go a long way toward establishing
actual understanding.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> davew<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2022, at
12:30 PM, Steve Smith wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On 9/1/22 11:21 AM, glen
wrote:<br>
>>>>> Inter-brain synchronization
occurs without physical co-presence during
cooperative online gaming<br>
>>>>> <a
href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028393222001750"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028393222001750</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> There's a lot piled into
the aggregate measures of EEG. And the mere fact
of the canalization conflates the unifying
tendencies of the objective (shared purpose)
with that of the common structure (virtual
world, interface, body, brain). But overall, it
argues against this guru focus on "sense-making"
(hermeneutic, monistic reification) and helps
argue for the fundamental plurality, openness,
and stochasticity of "language games".<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> If you want to share values
with some arbitrary shmoe, then get to *work*.
Build something or cooperate on a common task.
Talking, communicating, is inadequate at best,
disinfo at worst.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I agree somewhat with the
spirit of this, however a recent writer/book I
discovered is Sand Talk<<a
href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/sand-talk-tyson-yunkaporta?variant=32280908103714"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.harpercollins.com/products/sand-talk-tyson-yunkaporta?variant=32280908103714</a>>
by Tyson Yunkaporta and more specifically his
references to "Yarning" in his indigenous
Australian culture offered me a complementary
perspective...<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I definitely agree that the
"building of something together" is a powerful
world-building/negotiating/collaborative/seeking
experience. The social sciences use the term
Boundary Object<<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_object"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_object</a>>
and Boundary Negotiation Artifact. Jenny and
I wrote a draft white-paper on the topic of the
SimTable as a "boundary negotiating artifact"
last time she visited (2019?). A lot of
computer-graphics/visualization products provide
fill this role, but the physicality of a
sand-table with it's tactility and multiple
perspectives add yet more. The soap-box racer
or fort you build with your friend as a kid
provides the same. The bulk of my best
relationships in life involved "building
something together" whether it be a software
system or a house...<br>
>>><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ<br>
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