<div dir="auto">My erstwhile boss Raj Reddy was in the same Department with Simon and Newell and knew their work well. He said that it was relatively easy to create a computer program that did the work of a professor that the real challenge would be to develop an autonomous bulldozer.<div dir="auto"><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 11:37 AM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Wolpert's questions are fantastic. Thanks glen for prompting this discussion.<br>
<br>
Re: question one about the "chasm with minimal cognitive capabilities necessary ..."<br>
<br>
I have two major problems with the assumptions behind this question.<br>
<br>
First, the assumption that Godel, Einstein, and Beethoven exemplify 'greater' (in some sense of that word) cognitive abilities. This is analogous the the AI notions advanced by Newel and Simon that they had succeeded in creating a thinking machine because the thinking reproduced was that of university professors. They thought that the way they thought was the apex of human thinking. A much greater challenge\u2014 still avoided, even by the most sophisticated ML approaches \u2014 is how a baby is able to learn and extract meaning from a chaotic cacophony of inputs.<br>
<br>
Second, that the cognitive capabilities of pre-Holocene humans were "minimal." The most pernicious myth with regard our long ago ancestors derive from either Rousseau or Hobbes\u2014both of whom conjectured, with no evidence, that our ancestors existed in a primitive state\u2014Edenic for Rousseau, and brutish for Hobbes, but simplistically primitive.<br>
<br>
Quite the opposite was true. The world was far more complex and challenging, with everything from social relations to 'food chemistry' (e.g. brewing beer) to explanations of why everything in the world was as it was being highly variable across population groups and constantly in flux. A bit analogous to the baby making sense of the world.<br>
<br>
Humans today are able to "survive" primarily because of tens of thousands of years accumulation of "culture." Because we have that resource, we do not have to figure out if that nice striped quadruped over there will eat me; or, if that red berry will kill me but the other red berry is essential for a great BLT.<br>
<br>
It might be possible to make an argument: Godel, et. al., were able to do what they did because 'culture' reduced the daily (hourly, millisecond-ly) cognitive load such that it was possible to put the 'surplus' to work on issues of math and music; but, not that there was any kind of qualitative or quantitative difference in cognitive abilities of humans then and now.<br>
<br>
to be continued ...<br>
<br>
davew<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Sep 10, 2022, at 8:05 AM, Steve Smith wrote:<br>
> DaveW -<br>
>> Just wanted to put this here as a placeholder for future conversation as I would like to take up Wolpert's questions even though I am not "miraculous" per glen's invitation. I do need a day to two to read and pose questions /make observations, but others might be ready to chime in with observations right away.<br>
><br>
> always ready to "chime" at the drop of a dime here...<br>
><br>
> I look forward to your more considered responses. I hope my own chimes <br>
> aren't more mud than water...<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <br>
> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
> archives: 5/2017 thru present <br>
> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
<br>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote></div>