<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/11/22 12:56 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BYAPR11MB3830FD8434896942982CFBF4C5459@BYAPR11MB3830.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
medium)">
<style>@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-compose;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}</style>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Was just driving the backroads of Oregon in
a Tesla on autopilot.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tesla autopilot knows a lot. For example,
it understands the difference between a bicycle and a
motorcycle. On one occasion it mistook the sun low in the
sky for a large yellow streetlight. When it is confused it
simply requires you to take the wheel. While it never seems
to miss speed signs, it will respect the driver’s speed
setting. Autopilot still requires the driver to check in
frequently, so it is mostly still a novelty. One thing it is
better at than I am, is identifying deceleration. It warns
only if you don’t see it, not if you do. <br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I've a friend who made the point a while back that humanity's
history with technology has been to consistently build things to
replace themselves... <br>
</p>
<p>One could argue that our technology has been to *augment* rather
than *replace* and yet the net result is to displace? Tooth and
Claw becomes flaked stone-cum surgical steel/ceramic -
blade/chainsaw. Fur and leathery hide becomes bearskin robe-cum
temperature-regulated kevlar body-armor. Calloused Feet becomes
latex-dipped runners cum Self-Driving Tesla Gyrocopter. Memory
and oral tradition becomes clay tablet/quipu - cum global
interwebs connecting IoQT (internet of Quantum Things)?</p>
<p>I have had a few brushes with modern automobiles (rentals),
advanced situational awareness sensors but no *actuators*... And
yet even my first Schwinn circa 1964 was advanced enough that once
I was "trained to it", the bicycle could "steer itself" almost as
if it were reading my mind. <br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BYAPR11MB3830FD8434896942982CFBF4C5459@BYAPR11MB3830.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Frank Wimberly<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, September 11, 2022 11:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Wolpert - discussion thread
placeholder<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My erstwhile boss Raj Reddy was in the
same Department with Simon and Newell and knew their work
well. He said that it was relatively easy to create a
computer program that did the work of a professor that the
real challenge would be to develop an autonomous bulldozer.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 11:37 AM Prof
David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Wolpert's questions are fantastic.
Thanks glen for prompting this discussion.<br>
<br>
Re: question one about the "chasm with minimal cognitive
capabilities necessary ..."<br>
<br>
I have two major problems with the assumptions behind this
question.<br>
<br>
First, the assumption that Godel, Einstein, and Beethoven
exemplify 'greater' (in some sense of that word) cognitive
abilities. This is analogous the the AI notions advanced
by Newel and Simon that they had succeeded in creating a
thinking machine because the thinking reproduced was that
of university professors. They thought that the way they
thought was the apex of human thinking. A much greater
challenge— still avoided, even by the most sophisticated
ML approaches — is how a baby is able to learn and extract
meaning from a chaotic cacophony of inputs.<br>
<br>
Second, that the cognitive capabilities of pre-Holocene
humans were "minimal." The most pernicious myth with
regard our long ago ancestors derive from either Rousseau
or Hobbes—both of whom conjectured, with no evidence, that
our ancestors existed in a primitive state—Edenic for
Rousseau, and brutish for Hobbes, but simplistically
primitive.<br>
<br>
Quite the opposite was true. The world was far more
complex and challenging, with everything from social
relations to 'food chemistry' (e.g. brewing beer) to
explanations of why everything in the world was as it was
being highly variable across population groups and
constantly in flux. A bit analogous to the baby making
sense of the world.<br>
<br>
Humans today are able to "survive" primarily because of
tens of thousands of years accumulation of "culture."
Because we have that resource, we do not have to figure
out if that nice striped quadruped over there will eat me;
or, if that red berry will kill me but the other red berry
is essential for a great BLT.<br>
<br>
It might be possible to make an argument: Godel, et. al.,
were able to do what they did because 'culture' reduced
the daily (hourly, millisecond-ly) cognitive load such
that it was possible to put the 'surplus' to work on
issues of math and music; but, not that there was any kind
of qualitative or quantitative difference in cognitive
abilities of humans then and now.<br>
<br>
to be continued ...<br>
<br>
davew<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Sep 10, 2022, at 8:05 AM, Steve Smith wrote:<br>
> DaveW -<br>
>> Just wanted to put this here as a placeholder for
future conversation as I would like to take up Wolpert's
questions even though I am not "miraculous" per glen's
invitation. I do need a day to two to read and pose
questions /make observations, but others might be ready to
chime in with observations right away.<br>
><br>
> always ready to "chime" at the drop of a dime here...<br>
><br>
> I look forward to your more considered responses. I
hope my own chimes <br>
> aren't more mud than water...<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . /
-.-. --- -.. .<br>
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <br>
> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
> to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
> FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
> archives: 5/2017 thru present <br>
> <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
<br>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>