<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Just to be clear, I have zero antipathy towards Wolpert or his efforts at steelmanning. I think Wolpert does an excellent job of phrasing as questions what I perceive "Scientists" and "Computationalists" to merely assert as Truth. I have long tilted at that particular windmill and I applaud Wolpert, and glen for bringing him to our attention, for exposing the assertions such that counter arguments might be made.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">And when it comes to "computationalism" and AI; I know it is not the 1970s and things have "advanced" significantly. And although I do not comprehend the details as well as most of you, I do understand sufficiently, I believe, to advance the claim that they are suffering from the exact same blind spot (with variable details) as Simon and Newell, et. al. who championed GOFAI. Plus you all have heard of Simon and Newell but most of you are unfamiliar with McGilchrist and similar contemporary critics.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">My antipathy toward "Scientists" and "Computationalists" arises from what I perceive as an absolute refusal to credit any science, math, or ways/means of acquiring/expressing knowledge and understanding other than theirs. Dismissing neolithic and pre-modern science is one example. Failing to acknowledge the intelligence (and probably SAM) of other species—especially octopi—simply because they do not build atomic bombs or computers, is another.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">A really good book that would inform a discussion of Wolpert's questions, #4 in particular, is: <i>Other Minds: The Octopus, the sea, and the deep origins of consciousness</i>, by Peter Godfrey-Smith. A blurb follows.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i>Although mammals and birds are widely regarded as the smartest creatures on earth, it has lately become clear that a very distant branch of the tree of life has also sprouted higher intelligence: the cephalopods, consisting of the squid, the cuttlefish, and above all the octopus. In captivity, octopuses have been known to identify individual human keepers, raid neighboring tanks for food, turn off light bulbs by spouting jets of water, plug drains, and make daring escapes. How is it that a creature with such gifts evolved through an evolutionary lineage so radically distant from our own? What does it mean that evolution built minds not once but at least twice? The octopus is the closest we will come to meeting an intelligent alien. What can we learn from the encounter? </i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Thu, Sep 15, 2022, at 12:22 PM, Steve Smith wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>There is some kind of diectic error in our response.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Korrekshun - "deictic"<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> archives: 5/2017 thru present <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></body></html>