<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/24/22 9:49 AM, glen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7d20953a-7bac-3954-df97-af1f56cb99d6@gmail.com">Such
efforts seem so inherently metaphorical it's difficult for me to
approach a concrete conversation. For example, I have a couple of
biologist friends, one meso (bugs) and one macro (ungulates), who
thought I was being contrarian when I challenged their assertion
that biodiversity in urban areas was *obviously* lower than that
of natural areas like forests. Of course, I admit my ignorance up
front. Maybe they are. But it's just not obvious to me.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>This may seem a little tangential but the realm of Permaculture
Design has a suite of truisms on these topics, though they are
articulated in their unique language which can be a little hard to
translate sometimes. I think the permaculture community represent
a fertile laboratory for doing *some* experiments as implied by
Glen's questions.<br>
</p>
<p>A good example which gestures toward the Chan work at least
morphologically is maybe worth a scan if not a full read here:<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a
href="https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/</a></p>
<p align="center"><a
href="https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"><img
src="https://aflorestanova.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/center-of-the-permaculture-farm.jpg"
alt="" width="450" height="266"></a></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Permaculture's 5 zone quantization doesn't preclude a recognition
of there being continuous gradients in many dimensions from a
locus of "technological closed-loop" (zone 0) and "biological
closed loop" (zone 5).</p>
<p>There is a *lot* of talk in the literature about the interfaces
around zone 0, 1, 2 techno-structures creating localized ecozones
that harbor diversity (desired and undesired == vermin) which I
think provide some good anecdotal evidence about biodiversity in
transition zones and acute technological interfaces (e.g. roofs,
walls, corners, posts, fences, etc). Permaculture is a domain of
recognizing and exploiting "happy accidents".<br>
</p>
<p>It is also worth noting the diversity spike that happens in
estuarial contexts... <br>
</p>
<p>A more formal study of Urban/Architectural design with an eye to
*health* (human-centric view) is the domain of <a
href="https://www.terrapinbrightgreen.com/report/biophilia-healing-environments/">Biophilic
Design</a>. Nikos Salingaros is a hard-core Mathematician at
UT-San Antonio who addresses abstractions of <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Complexity">Complexity</a>
and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language">Pattern
Languages</a> as well as Architecture and Urbanism. He also has
some <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Philosophy">interesting
opinions</a> about post modernism as well as Dawkins Atheism.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7d20953a-7bac-3954-df97-af1f56cb99d6@gmail.com">
<br>
Since then, they've presented (meso and macro) arguments that
justify their position. It does seem obvious that urban areas
trend to more adaptable animals like coyotes and raccoons and less
so to, say, deer. The bugs are more interesting. Meso guy found
some articles that show "species" diversity in urban areas is
roughly the same as natural areas. But phylogenetic diversity is
clearly lower in urban areas. That seems counter intuitive to me.
It's a cool result.
<br>
<br>
My main point when I originally expressed skepticism, though, was
about microbial diversity. Is it possible that bug-layer and
microbe-layer (including what lives in/on large animals like rats
and humans) diversity makes up for lower diversity in
large-layers?
<br>
<br>
I *feel* that projects like Chan's could help with this question
since it seems prohibitively expensive to sample and test enough
microbial populations of urban and wild areas, especially if we
include intra-animal populations. I'm just not sure *how* they
could help.
<br>
<br>
On 9/24/22 03:38, David Eric Smith wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">It’s funny; I know Bert.
<br>
<br>
One of our colleagues played a role in bringing him out to work
at Google in Tokyo.
<br>
<br>
A mathematician (Will Cavendish) who has part-time support at
IAS
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish">https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish"><https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish></a>
<br>
is also interested in the mathematical dimensions of this,
though I have only a glancing exposure to how those two together
are trying to frame the problems. Because Bert has come at it
more from the ALife/engineering approach, and Will’s interests
run more in the direction of proving capabilities of broad
classes of systems, often interested in their aggregation as
categories (and also about the role of simulation as a
replacement for proof in systems that produce complicated enough
state spaces), it should be a productive and interesting
collaboration. I don’t know how engaged others are in the
Google group on this specific project, because I am too far
outside that loop.
<br>
<br>
Eric
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Sep 23, 2022, at 4:03 PM, Jon Zingale
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jonzingale@gmail.com">jonzingale@gmail.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jonzingale@gmail.com"><mailto:jonzingale@gmail.com></a>> wrote:
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/1812.05433.pdf">https://arxiv.org/pdf/1812.05433.pdf</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/1812.05433.pdf"><https://arxiv.org/pdf/1812.05433.pdf></a>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>