<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Alexander was a Janus: a mathematician at his father's insistence when he wanted to be an artist. An architect by compromise. Face two was a Taoist mystic infused with hard core Catholic fundamentalism.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">His Ph.D. thesis—which became his first book, <i>Notes on the Synthesis of Form</i>—was an attempt to define a mathematical science of [architectural/industrial] design. But in the same book, he stated that optimal design arose from a "non-selfconscious" process, embedded in myth and ritual and culture.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i>A Pattern Language</i>, was part of a trilogy that included <i>The Timeless Way of Building</i> and the <i>Oregon Experiment</i>. <i>APL</i> was written by committee and edited by Alexander (although he took all the credit) to fulfill a government grant. His mystical side was front and center in <i>TTW</i>; and the Oregon Experiment was a case study.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Alexander transcended Patterns and his last major work—<i>The Nature of Order, vol 1-4</i>—centered 15 generative properties that have little to nothing to do with patterns and is far more mystical and Catholic-God focused than his earlier work.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck brought <i>APL</i> to the attention of the software community as a workshop at OOPSLA (ACM conference on Object Oriented Programming Systems and Applications). The 'Gang of Four' authors of <i>Pattern Languages of Programming</i> participated in that workshop. A year after their book was published a mock trial of the GoF for "heresy" was staged and they were found guilty.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Perhaps the most significant error made by the software community was seeking patterns in "solution space" rather than "problem space;" the latter being where most of Alexander's work was focused. The software patterns community looked at written programs to find multiple instances of similar bodies of code and attempt to discern a generalized problem that they solved (albeit with contextual idiosyncrasies).<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">There are hundreds of thousands of software patterns published, but maybe three or four that actually capable of being applied in multiple contexts—of actually being considered "true" patterns.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The connection to geometry, both in Alexander and in software patterns, was never more than tenuous. A majority of the patterns in APL (e.g., "Dancing in the Streets," "Sleeping in Public") had nothing to do with geometry or any other mathematical formalism. Even patterns like "Light from Two Sides" are geometric in the only the simplest sense.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The math in <i>Notes</i> was algebra, not geometry. Only in his last major work NO, can you find properties that are overtly geometric, e.g., "centers" and "alternating repetition."<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">more upon request<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, at 5:13 PM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> I'd appreciate you (and SteveS) throwing some words at it. In <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> particular, since software patterns are *supposed* to be linked to the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> geometric patterns of architecture, *where* or *how* has it gone wrong <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> in extrapolation? Did Alexander go wrong in his extrapolation? Or did <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> others [mis]interpret?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> (I've purposefully left the Subject the same because it definitely <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> relates to Chan's morphology based taxonomy and my argument with my <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> meso-biologist friend about "species diversity" versus "phylogenetic <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> diversity".)<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> On 9/26/22 15:35, Prof David West wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> I am a patterns and Alexander expert. glen's uncertainty / mild antipathy is spot on. Software patterns are an oxymoron.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Strong words, but happy to back them up with dozens of papers written/presented and hours of discussion.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, at 6:29 AM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> Very cool! Thanks.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> In particular, our property abuts "the ravine", which is a semi-wild<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> place. The permaculture categories might help me orient my own<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> intuition (that everything in the ravine should be left alone) with my<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> neighbor's (clearing the whole area and reintroducing natives). He owns<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> the majority of it. So, c'est la vie ... or perhaps "telle est la<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> mort". (Don't blame me. I don't know French.) One thing this zone 0-5<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> model might permit is modularity. That blog post implies such with the<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> inverted garden interface. But it seems like there could be pockets of<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> zone0es in wild areas and pockets of zone5s in urban areas,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> particularly in sprawling cities like LA or Houston. Growing up in<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> Houston, where every square inch of semi-abandoned land seemed rapidly<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> reclaimed by the swamp, is probably the source of my skepticism with my<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> friends' diversity doctrine.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> There's a lot to digest in the biophilia links. I have to confess, I<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> haven't given pattern languages much attention. It always seems<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> motivated by geometry, which fails for me. Of course, I'm familiar<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> enough with software patterns. But that's always failed for me as well.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> They seem too ephemeral, unstable ... i.e. not real, convenient<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> fiction, and *perfect* opportunity for gurus to blind others with their<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> gobbledygook mouth sounds. I guess it reminds me of category theory,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> too abstract for my ape brain. But maybe some of his earlier work on<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> Clifford algebras might motivate me? I could start here, I guess:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> <a href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41">https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> Thanks again.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> On 9/24/22 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> On 9/24/22 9:49 AM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> Such efforts seem so inherently metaphorical it's difficult for me to approach a concrete conversation. For example, I have a couple of biologist friends, one meso (bugs) and one macro (ungulates), who thought I was being contrarian when I challenged their assertion that biodiversity in urban areas was *obviously* lower than that of natural areas like forests. Of course, I admit my ignorance up front. Maybe they are. But it's just not obvious to me.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> This may seem a little tangential but the realm of Permaculture Design has a suite of truisms on these topics, though they are articulated in their unique language which can be a little hard to translate sometimes. I think the permaculture community represent a fertile laboratory for doing *some* experiments as implied by Glen's questions.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> A good example which gestures toward the Chan work at least morphologically is maybe worth a scan if not a full read here:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> <a href="https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/">https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> Permaculture's 5 zone quantization doesn't preclude a recognition of there being continuous gradients in many dimensions from a locus of "technological closed-loop" (zone 0) and "biological closed loop" (zone 5).<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> There is a *lot* of talk in the literature about the interfaces around zone 0, 1, 2 techno-structures creating localized ecozones that harbor diversity (desired and undesired == vermin) which I think provide some good anecdotal evidence about biodiversity in transition zones and acute technological interfaces (e.g. roofs, walls, corners, posts, fences, etc). Permaculture is a domain of recognizing and exploiting "happy accidents".<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> It is also worth noting the diversity spike that happens in estuarial contexts...<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> A more formal study of Urban/Architectural design with an eye to *health* (human-centric view) is the domain of Biophilic Design <<a href="https://www.terrapinbrightgreen.com/report/biophilia-healing-environments/">https://www.terrapinbrightgreen.com/report/biophilia-healing-environments/</a>>. Nikos Salingaros is a hard-core Mathematician at UT-San Antonio who addresses abstractions of Complexity <<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Complexity">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Complexity</a>> and Pattern Languages <<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language</a>> as well as Architecture and Urbanism. He also has some interesting opinions <<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Philosophy">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Philosophy</a>> about post modernism as well as Dawkins Atheism.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> Since then, they've presented (meso and macro) arguments that justify their position. It does seem obvious that urban areas trend to more adaptable animals like coyotes and raccoons and less so to, say, deer. The bugs are more interesting. Meso guy found some articles that show "species" diversity in urban areas is roughly the same as natural areas. But phylogenetic diversity is clearly lower in urban areas. That seems counter intuitive to me. It's a cool result.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> My main point when I originally expressed skepticism, though, was about microbial diversity. Is it possible that bug-layer and microbe-layer (including what lives in/on large animals like rats and humans) diversity makes up for lower diversity in large-layers?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> I *feel* that projects like Chan's could help with this question since it seems prohibitively expensive to sample and test enough microbial populations of urban and wild areas, especially if we include intra-animal populations. I'm just not sure *how* they could help.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> On 9/24/22 03:38, David Eric Smith wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> It’s funny; I know Bert.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> One of our colleagues played a role in bringing him out to work at Google in Tokyo.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> A mathematician (Will Cavendish) who has part-time support at IAS<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> <a href="https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish">https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish</a> <<a href="https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish">https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish</a>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> is also interested in the mathematical dimensions of this, though I have only a glancing exposure to how those two together are trying to frame the problems. Because Bert has come at it more from the ALife/engineering approach, and Will’s interests run more in the direction of proving capabilities of broad classes of systems, often interested in their aggregation as categories (and also about the role of simulation as a replacement for proof in systems that produce complicated enough state spaces), it should be a productive and interesting collaboration. I don’t know how engaged others are in the Google group on this specific project, because I am too far outside that loop.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> Eric<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -- <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> archives: 5/2017 thru present <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></body></html>