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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/26/22 6:13 PM, glen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7fb86c47-d991-2627-77b9-ed6375ac0bc4@gmail.com">I'd
appreciate you (and SteveS) throwing some words at it. In
particular, since software patterns are *supposed* to be linked to
the geometric patterns of architecture, </blockquote>
<p>I'm not at all an expert on software patterns... maybe DaveW can
speak more to this and I will ask the question of Richard Gabriel
when he visits here with Jenny in a couple of weeks maybe...</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7fb86c47-d991-2627-77b9-ed6375ac0bc4@gmail.com">*where*
or *how* has it gone wrong in extrapolation? Did Alexander go
wrong in his extrapolation? Or did others [mis]interpret?
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>Alexander's patterns are much more about relationships than
geometry in my perception. Spatially *constrained* relationships
yes, but relationships nonetheless... it spans the same
agent/field particle/wave dualities that we find in some
simulation and quantum conceptions.<br>
</p>
<p>I don't think trying to emulate *architectural patterns* for
software was ever a good idea. Reading from the Wikipedia article
on Pattern Languages (and remembering from the introductory
sections of Alexander's work):</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i><span style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family:
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">A pattern
language can also be an attempt to express the deeper wisdom
of what brings aliveness within a particular field of human
endeavor, through a set of interconnected patterns.
Aliveness is one placeholder term for "the quality that has
no name": a sense of wholeness, spirit, or grace, that while
of varying form, is precise and empirically verifiable.</span></i><i><sup
id="cite_ref-1" class="reference" style="line-height: 1;
unicode-bidi: isolate; white-space: nowrap; font-weight:
400; font-size: 11.2px; color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family:
sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language#cite_note-1"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173);
background: none;">[1]</a></sup></i><i><span style="color:
rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;"><span> </span>Alexander claims
that ordinary people can use this design approach to
successfully solve very large, complex design problems.</span></i></p>
</blockquote>
You may well be right about there having been a misapprehension on
the part of the Go4 when they put it all together... it feels "off"
to me as well, but I always put that up to having too many
pre-existing opinions about Pattern Languages and about Software
Design when they introduced the two...<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7fb86c47-d991-2627-77b9-ed6375ac0bc4@gmail.com">(I've
purposefully left the Subject the same because it definitely
relates to Chan's morphology based taxonomy and my argument with
my meso-biologist friend about "species diversity" versus
"phylogenetic diversity".)
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm not a thread-hygiene fiend, but do appreciate it when others
make the effort. My offerage of *another* subject was to try to
respect the possibility that this was a tangent. I do think this
conversation *can* remain tied to the diversity theme.
Alexander's work is based in the *idea* that he and his team(s)
did the ethnographic work in studying extant "built environments"
to obtain the *essence* of what built human living environments
(regional/urban/neighborhood/compound/home/office/room/furniture)
that can be found and used rather than a profession/industry
(architecture/building) deciding somewhat a-priori or
to-their-convenience what people need/want to live in/amongst. <br>
</p>
<p>Alexander was pretty clear (I think) that everyone should take
his work with a grain of salt and seek to add their own patterns,
generate their own pattern languages, etc.</p>
<p>The QWAN (quality without a name) business probably tweaks into
our "effing the ineffable" thread for better or worse... but it
*is* the first place *I* found myself accepting that kind of
mystical "mouth movement sounds" as maybe having more to them than
just hand-waving and carpet under-sweeping. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7fb86c47-d991-2627-77b9-ed6375ac0bc4@gmail.com">
<br>
On 9/26/22 15:35, Prof David West wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I am a patterns and Alexander expert.
glen's uncertainty / mild antipathy is spot on. Software
patterns are an oxymoron.
<br>
<br>
Strong words, but happy to back them up with dozens of papers
written/presented and hours of discussion.
<br>
<br>
davew
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, at 6:29 AM, glen wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Very cool! Thanks.
<br>
<br>
In particular, our property abuts "the ravine", which is a
semi-wild
<br>
place. The permaculture categories might help me orient my own
<br>
intuition (that everything in the ravine should be left alone)
with my
<br>
neighbor's (clearing the whole area and reintroducing
natives). He owns
<br>
the majority of it. So, c'est la vie ... or perhaps "telle est
la
<br>
mort". (Don't blame me. I don't know French.) One thing this
zone 0-5
<br>
model might permit is modularity. That blog post implies such
with the
<br>
inverted garden interface. But it seems like there could be
pockets of
<br>
zone0es in wild areas and pockets of zone5s in urban areas,
<br>
particularly in sprawling cities like LA or Houston. Growing
up in
<br>
Houston, where every square inch of semi-abandoned land seemed
rapidly
<br>
reclaimed by the swamp, is probably the source of my
skepticism with my
<br>
friends' diversity doctrine.
<br>
<br>
There's a lot to digest in the biophilia links. I have to
confess, I
<br>
haven't given pattern languages much attention. It always
seems
<br>
motivated by geometry, which fails for me. Of course, I'm
familiar
<br>
enough with software patterns. But that's always failed for me
as well.
<br>
They seem too ephemeral, unstable ... i.e. not real,
convenient
<br>
fiction, and *perfect* opportunity for gurus to blind others
with their
<br>
gobbledygook mouth sounds. I guess it reminds me of category
theory,
<br>
too abstract for my ape brain. But maybe some of his earlier
work on
<br>
Clifford algebras might motivate me? I could start here, I
guess:
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41">https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41</a>
<br>
<br>
Thanks again.
<br>
<br>
On 9/24/22 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<br>
On 9/24/22 9:49 AM, glen wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Such efforts seem so inherently
metaphorical it's difficult for me to approach a concrete
conversation. For example, I have a couple of biologist
friends, one meso (bugs) and one macro (ungulates), who
thought I was being contrarian when I challenged their
assertion that biodiversity in urban areas was *obviously*
lower than that of natural areas like forests. Of course,
I admit my ignorance up front. Maybe they are. But it's
just not obvious to me.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
This may seem a little tangential but the realm of
Permaculture Design has a suite of truisms on these topics,
though they are articulated in their unique language which
can be a little hard to translate sometimes. I think the
permaculture community represent a fertile laboratory for
doing *some* experiments as implied by Glen's questions.
<br>
<br>
A good example which gestures toward the Chan work at least
morphologically is maybe worth a scan if not a full read
here:
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/">https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/</a><br>
<br>
Permaculture's 5 zone quantization doesn't preclude a
recognition of there being continuous gradients in many
dimensions from a locus of "technological closed-loop" (zone
0) and "biological closed loop" (zone 5).
<br>
<br>
There is a *lot* of talk in the literature about the
interfaces around zone 0, 1, 2 techno-structures creating
localized ecozones that harbor diversity (desired and
undesired == vermin) which I think provide some good
anecdotal evidence about biodiversity in transition zones
and acute technological interfaces (e.g. roofs, walls,
corners, posts, fences, etc). Permaculture is a domain of
recognizing and exploiting "happy accidents".
<br>
<br>
It is also worth noting the diversity spike that happens in
estuarial contexts...
<br>
<br>
A more formal study of Urban/Architectural design with an
eye to *health* (human-centric view) is the domain of
Biophilic Design
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.terrapinbrightgreen.com/report/biophilia-healing-environments/"><https://www.terrapinbrightgreen.com/report/biophilia-healing-environments/></a>.
Nikos Salingaros is a hard-core Mathematician at UT-San
Antonio who addresses abstractions of Complexity
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Complexity"><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Complexity></a>
and Pattern Languages
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language"><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language></a> as
well as Architecture and Urbanism. He also has some
interesting opinions
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Philosophy"><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Philosophy></a>
about post modernism as well as Dawkins Atheism.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<br>
Since then, they've presented (meso and macro) arguments
that justify their position. It does seem obvious that
urban areas trend to more adaptable animals like coyotes
and raccoons and less so to, say, deer. The bugs are more
interesting. Meso guy found some articles that show
"species" diversity in urban areas is roughly the same as
natural areas. But phylogenetic diversity is clearly lower
in urban areas. That seems counter intuitive to me. It's a
cool result.
<br>
<br>
My main point when I originally expressed skepticism,
though, was about microbial diversity. Is it possible that
bug-layer and microbe-layer (including what lives in/on
large animals like rats and humans) diversity makes up for
lower diversity in large-layers?
<br>
<br>
I *feel* that projects like Chan's could help with this
question since it seems prohibitively expensive to sample
and test enough microbial populations of urban and wild
areas, especially if we include intra-animal populations.
I'm just not sure *how* they could help.
<br>
<br>
On 9/24/22 03:38, David Eric Smith wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">It’s funny; I know Bert.
<br>
<br>
One of our colleagues played a role in bringing him out
to work at Google in Tokyo.
<br>
<br>
A mathematician (Will Cavendish) who has part-time
support at IAS
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish">https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish"><https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish></a>
<br>
is also interested in the mathematical dimensions of
this, though I have only a glancing exposure to how
those two together are trying to frame the problems.
Because Bert has come at it more from the
ALife/engineering approach, and Will’s interests run
more in the direction of proving capabilities of broad
classes of systems, often interested in their
aggregation as categories (and also about the role of
simulation as a replacement for proof in systems that
produce complicated enough state spaces), it should be a
productive and interesting collaboration. I don’t know
how engaged others are in the Google group on this
specific project, because I am too far outside that
loop.
<br>
<br>
Eric
<br>
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