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<p>DaveW -</p>
<p>Very well articulated and I am pleased to hear the background of
Go4 and OOPSLA, etc. I particularly appreciate your casting it
as a solution vs problem space problem.<br>
</p>
<p>I read _Notes on the Synthesis of Form_ in tandem with Kauffman's
_Investigations_ while on a month-vacation in NZ during the
Gore-Bush hanging-chad business at the end of 2000. It was a very
liminal and therefore pivotal time for me to be reading these
things. I pre-ordered Alexander's "Nature of Order_ and read
them (often with great suffering) as they came in over several
years of publication (I forget the dates, probably ending around
2005 ?). I did not know (or appreciate) the links from this work
to Catholic Fundamentalism, but will look at them with a new eye
as a result. I was also trying to tie in Lakoff's work on
_Metaphors we Live by_ and _Embodied Mathematics_ at the time, as
well as Hofstadter/Mitchell's _Analogical Reasoning_ into a
coherent *apprehension* (not theory or treatise) of at least one
of our *many* modes of apprehending the world, built and found.
<br>
</p>
<p>- SS<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/26/22 8:47 PM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">Alexander was a Janus: a
mathematician at his father's insistence when he wanted to be an
artist. An architect by compromise. Face two was a Taoist
mystic infused with hard core Catholic fundamentalism.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">His Ph.D. thesis—which became his
first book, <i>Notes on the Synthesis of Form</i>—was an
attempt to define a mathematical science of
[architectural/industrial] design. But in the same book, he
stated that optimal design arose from a "non-selfconscious"
process, embedded in myth and ritual and culture.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><i>A Pattern Language</i>, was
part of a trilogy that included <i>The Timeless Way of Building</i>
and the <i>Oregon Experiment</i>. <i>APL</i> was written by
committee and edited by Alexander (although he took all the
credit) to fulfill a government grant. His mystical side was
front and center in <i>TTW</i>; and the Oregon Experiment was a
case study.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Alexander transcended Patterns and
his last major work—<i>The Nature of Order, vol 1-4</i>—centered
15 generative properties that have little to nothing to do with
patterns and is far more mystical and Catholic-God focused than
his earlier work.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck
brought <i>APL</i> to the attention of the software community
as a workshop at OOPSLA (ACM conference on Object Oriented
Programming Systems and Applications). The 'Gang of Four'
authors of <i>Pattern Languages of Programming</i> participated
in that workshop. A year after their book was published a mock
trial of the GoF for "heresy" was staged and they were found
guilty.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Perhaps the most significant error
made by the software community was seeking patterns in "solution
space" rather than "problem space;" the latter being where most
of Alexander's work was focused. The software patterns community
looked at written programs to find multiple instances of similar
bodies of code and attempt to discern a generalized problem that
they solved (albeit with contextual idiosyncrasies).<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">There are hundreds of thousands of
software patterns published, but maybe three or four that
actually capable of being applied in multiple contexts—of
actually being considered "true" patterns.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">The connection to geometry, both
in Alexander and in software patterns, was never more than
tenuous. A majority of the patterns in APL (e.g., "Dancing in
the Streets," "Sleeping in Public") had nothing to do with
geometry or any other mathematical formalism. Even patterns like
"Light from Two Sides" are geometric in the only the simplest
sense.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">The math in <i>Notes</i> was
algebra, not geometry. Only in his last major work NO, can you
find properties that are overtly geometric, e.g., "centers" and
"alternating repetition."<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">more upon request<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, at 5:13 PM,
glen wrote:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> I'd appreciate you (and
SteveS) throwing some words at it. In <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> particular, since software
patterns are *supposed* to be linked to the <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> geometric patterns of
architecture, *where* or *how* has it gone wrong <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> in extrapolation? Did
Alexander go wrong in his extrapolation? Or did <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> others [mis]interpret?<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> (I've purposefully left the
Subject the same because it definitely <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> relates to Chan's morphology
based taxonomy and my argument with my <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> meso-biologist friend about
"species diversity" versus "phylogenetic <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> diversity".)<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> On 9/26/22 15:35, Prof David
West wrote:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> I am a patterns and
Alexander expert. glen's uncertainty / mild antipathy is spot
on. Software patterns are an oxymoron.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Strong words, but happy
to back them up with dozens of papers written/presented and
hours of discussion.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, at
6:29 AM, glen wrote:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> Very cool! Thanks.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> In particular, our
property abuts "the ravine", which is a semi-wild<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> place. The
permaculture categories might help me orient my own<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> intuition (that
everything in the ravine should be left alone) with my<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> neighbor's (clearing
the whole area and reintroducing natives). He owns<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> the majority of it.
So, c'est la vie ... or perhaps "telle est la<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> mort". (Don't blame
me. I don't know French.) One thing this zone 0-5<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> model might permit is
modularity. That blog post implies such with the<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> inverted garden
interface. But it seems like there could be pockets of<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> zone0es in wild areas
and pockets of zone5s in urban areas,<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> particularly in
sprawling cities like LA or Houston. Growing up in<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> Houston, where every
square inch of semi-abandoned land seemed rapidly<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> reclaimed by the
swamp, is probably the source of my skepticism with my<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> friends' diversity
doctrine.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> There's a lot to
digest in the biophilia links. I have to confess, I<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> haven't given pattern
languages much attention. It always seems<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> motivated by
geometry, which fails for me. Of course, I'm familiar<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> enough with software
patterns. But that's always failed for me as well.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> They seem too
ephemeral, unstable ... i.e. not real, convenient<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> fiction, and
*perfect* opportunity for gurus to blind others with their<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> gobbledygook mouth
sounds. I guess it reminds me of category theory,<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> too abstract for my
ape brain. But maybe some of his earlier work on<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> Clifford algebras
might motivate me? I could start here, I guess:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> <a
href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41</a><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> Thanks again.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> On 9/24/22 10:29,
Steve Smith wrote:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> On 9/24/22 9:49
AM, glen wrote:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> Such efforts
seem so inherently metaphorical it's difficult for me to
approach a concrete conversation. For example, I have a couple
of biologist friends, one meso (bugs) and one macro (ungulates),
who thought I was being contrarian when I challenged their
assertion that biodiversity in urban areas was *obviously* lower
than that of natural areas like forests. Of course, I admit my
ignorance up front. Maybe they are. But it's just not obvious to
me.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> This may seem a
little tangential but the realm of Permaculture Design has a
suite of truisms on these topics, though they are articulated in
their unique language which can be a little hard to translate
sometimes. I think the permaculture community represent a
fertile laboratory for doing *some* experiments as implied by
Glen's questions.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> A good example
which gestures toward the Chan work at least morphologically is
maybe worth a scan if not a full read here:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> <a
href="https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/</a><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> Permaculture's 5
zone quantization doesn't preclude a recognition of there being
continuous gradients in many dimensions from a locus of
"technological closed-loop" (zone 0) and "biological closed
loop" (zone 5).<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> There is a *lot*
of talk in the literature about the interfaces around zone 0, 1,
2 techno-structures creating localized ecozones that harbor
diversity (desired and undesired == vermin) which I think
provide some good anecdotal evidence about biodiversity in
transition zones and acute technological interfaces (e.g. roofs,
walls, corners, posts, fences, etc). Permaculture is a domain
of recognizing and exploiting "happy accidents".<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> It is also worth
noting the diversity spike that happens in estuarial contexts...<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> A more formal
study of Urban/Architectural design with an eye to *health*
(human-centric view) is the domain of Biophilic Design <<a
href="https://www.terrapinbrightgreen.com/report/biophilia-healing-environments/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.terrapinbrightgreen.com/report/biophilia-healing-environments/</a>>.
Nikos Salingaros is a hard-core Mathematician at UT-San Antonio
who addresses abstractions of Complexity <<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Complexity"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Complexity</a>>
and Pattern Languages <<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language</a>>
as well as Architecture and Urbanism. He also has some
interesting opinions <<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Philosophy"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Philosophy</a>>
about post modernism as well as Dawkins Atheism.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> Since then,
they've presented (meso and macro) arguments that justify their
position. It does seem obvious that urban areas trend to more
adaptable animals like coyotes and raccoons and less so to, say,
deer. The bugs are more interesting. Meso guy found some
articles that show "species" diversity in urban areas is roughly
the same as natural areas. But phylogenetic diversity is clearly
lower in urban areas. That seems counter intuitive to me. It's a
cool result.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> My main point
when I originally expressed skepticism, though, was about
microbial diversity. Is it possible that bug-layer and
microbe-layer (including what lives in/on large animals like
rats and humans) diversity makes up for lower diversity in
large-layers?<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> I *feel* that
projects like Chan's could help with this question since it
seems prohibitively expensive to sample and test enough
microbial populations of urban and wild areas, especially if we
include intra-animal populations. I'm just not sure *how* they
could help.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> On 9/24/22
03:38, David Eric Smith wrote:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> It’s
funny; I know Bert.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> One of
our colleagues played a role in bringing him out to work at
Google in Tokyo.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> A
mathematician (Will Cavendish) who has part-time support at IAS<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> <a
href="https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish</a>
<<a href="https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish</a>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> is also
interested in the mathematical dimensions of this, though I have
only a glancing exposure to how those two together are trying to
frame the problems. Because Bert has come at it more from the
ALife/engineering approach, and Will’s interests run more in the
direction of proving capabilities of broad classes of systems,
often interested in their aggregation as categories (and also
about the role of simulation as a replacement for proof in
systems that produce complicated enough state spaces), it should
be a productive and interesting collaboration. I don’t know how
engaged others are in the Google group on this specific project,
because I am too far outside that loop.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>>> Eric<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> -- <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ
ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">><br>
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