<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">I an concurrently reading, <i>Nineteen Ways of Looking at Consciousness</i>, by Patrick House and <i>Mountain in the Sea</i>, by Ray Nayler. The latter is fiction. (The former, because it deals with consciousness may also be fiction, but it purports to be neuro-scientific / philosophical.)<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The novel is about Octopi and AI and an android, plus humans and juxtaposes ideas about consciousness in comparison and contrast. A lot of fun.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Both books pose some interesting questions and both support glen's advocacy of a typology.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, at 1:26 PM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> There are many different measures of *types* of consciousness. But <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> without specifying the type, such questions are not even philosophical. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> They're nonsense.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> For example, the test of whether one can recognize one's image in a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> mirror couldn't be performed by a chatbot. But it is one of the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> measures of consciousness. Another type of test would be those that <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> measure conscious state before, during, and after anesthesia. Again, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> that wouldn't work the same for a chatbot. But both aggregate measures <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> like EEG and fMRI connectomes might have analogs in tracing for <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> algorithms like ANNs. If we could simply decide "Yes, *that* chatbot is <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> what we're going to call conscious and, therefore, the traced patterns <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> it exhibits in the profiler are the correlates for chatbot <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> consciousness." Then we'd have a trace-based test to perform on other <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> chatbots *with similar computational structure*.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Hell, the cops have their tests for consciousness executed at drunk <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> driving checkpoints. Look up and touch your nose. Recite the alphabet <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> backwards. Etc. These are tests for types of consciousness. Of course, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> I feel sure there are people who'd like to move the goal posts and <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> claim "That's not Consciousness with a big C." Pffft. No typology ⇒ no <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> science. So if someone can't list off a few distinct types of <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> consciousness, then it's not even philosophy.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> On 10/18/22 13:12, Jochen Fromm wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Paul Buchheit asked on Twitter<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <a href="https://twitter.com/paultoo/status/1582455708041113600">https://twitter.com/paultoo/status/1582455708041113600</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> "Is consciousness measurable, or is it just a philosophical concept? If an AI claims to be conscious, how do we know that it's not simply faking/imitating consciousness? Is there something that I could challenge it with to prove/disprove consciousness?"<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> What do you think? 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