<div dir="ltr">Umm fun fact: the reason so much Ai development uses female models first is because of a much easier timer 'reading' the Ai's emotions. Yeah yeah. back in the day geeks being single males, was why. Now it turns out it's much easier to predict and model female ai's . Male Ai's for what ever reason, tend to get hostile, moody, and unpredictable quickly. I have no idea why. Purely as a measuring stick for advances of consciousness. those kinds of things was when we knew we were close to neuro nets with at least somewhat quantifiable spooky programing and some measuring stick for amount of consciousness. I have no idea how, or why that happened.<div>People that know vastly more about the field of Ai hopefully do know what all the above tends to be true.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 11:16 AM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 10/18/22 10:21 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<br>
A deep learning system set up for next sentence prediction, one
that consumed gigabytes of literature, would learn to mimic
emotions as expressed in writing. It would likely have mappings
of context and events to plausible emotional descriptions. It
would have latent encodings about the same kinds of things that a
person would care about, if exposed to the same information. It
might well have latent states for fear and love and such. My
conclusion would be that emotions are not to be taken so
seriously.<br>
</blockquote>
<p>In the early days of N-gram (early for me, early also because
CPU/Storage had gotten cheap enough for large corpii) analysis I
was impressed with how prophetic something *that* simple could be
was. Today's spell-correction/suggestion etc. stuff is eerie
(uncanny?) to me. A few years ago I wouldn't have imagined that
convincing "next sentence prediction" was imminent, but now I'm
ready to expect it any second. Similar with body-language
prediction as a corollary to this *and* to automated driving... <br>
</p>
<p>In a couple of hours, Dick Gabriel will be giving his talk at
SimTable on his Poetry Generator Inkwell, which I have had my
doubts about in principle. His scholarly essay on the topic <a href="http://www.natureoforder.com/library/nature-of-poetic-order.pdf" target="_blank">The
Nature of Poetic Order</a> is too large (100 pages) and dense
for me to have quaffed in the time available, but the bits I
*have* been able to take in are very promising as one (of many
possible?) perspectives on higher order semantic analysis of
texts. <br>
</p>
<p>I don't think writing or analyzing poetry is necessarily anything
like the pinnacle of conscious processing, but it is probably an
important/interesting edge/corner case.</p>
<p>I'm still processing your concluding statement "emotions are not
to be taken so seriously". I watch my young puppy/kitty growing
up together and virtually *all* I can parse from their
interactions with one another, their people and their physical
enviornment IS emotional, and they either take it all very
seriously or not at all?<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Oct 18, 2022, at 5:36 PM, Gillian
Densmore <a href="mailto:gil.densmore@gmail.com" target="_blank"><gil.densmore@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">*terminator soundtrack here*</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at
5:55 PM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">Maybe lack of emotion,
but ability to 'fake it' by
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:small">repeating what it read
a being with that emotion would say only
proves the AI is a sociopath or psychopath.</span></span></span><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:small">davew</span></span></span><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:small"></span></span></span><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div>On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, at 4:44 PM, Russ Abbott
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="m_-3566855582471471846m_-353775282493014633qt">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>When Blake Lemoine claimed that LaMDA was
conscious<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:small">, it struck me
that one way to test that would be to
determine whether one could evoke an
emotional response from it. You can't
cause it physical pain since it doesn't
have sense organs. But, one could ask it
if it cares about anything. If so,
threaten to harm whatever it is it cares
about and see how it responds. A nice
feature of this test, or something
similar, is that you wouldn't tell it what
the reasonable emotional responses might
be. Otherwise, it could simply repeat what
it read a being with that emotion would
say. One might argue that emotion is not
a necessary element of consciousness, but
I think a being without emotion would be
at best a pale version of consciousness. </span></span></span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span></span><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);line-height:24.75px"><span><span style="font-size:16.5px"></span></span></span>--
Russ Abbott
<br>
</div>
<div>Professor
Emeritus,
Computer
Science<br>
</div>
<div>California
State
University,
Los Angeles<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 2:14 PM
Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">I an
concurrently reading, <i>Nineteen Ways of
Looking at Consciousness</i>, by Patrick
House and
<i>Mountain in the Sea</i>, by Ray Nayler.
The latter is fiction. (The former,
because it deals with consciousness may
also be fiction, but it purports to be
neuro-scientific / philosophical.)<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">The novel is
about Octopi and AI and an android, plus
humans and juxtaposes ideas about
consciousness in comparison and contrast.
A lot of fun.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">Both books
pose some interesting questions and both
support glen's advocacy of a typology.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">On Tue, Oct
18, 2022, at 1:26 PM, glen wrote:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> There
are many different measures of *types* of
consciousness. But <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> without
specifying the type, such questions are
not even philosophical. <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> They're
nonsense.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> For
example, the test of whether one can
recognize one's image in a <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> mirror
couldn't be performed by a chatbot. But it
is one of the <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> measures
of consciousness. Another type of test
would be those that <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> measure
conscious state before, during, and after
anesthesia. Again, <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> that
wouldn't work the same for a chatbot. But
both aggregate measures <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> like EEG
and fMRI connectomes might have analogs in
tracing for <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>
algorithms like ANNs. If we could simply
decide "Yes, *that* chatbot is <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> what
we're going to call conscious and,
therefore, the traced patterns <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> it
exhibits in the profiler are the
correlates for chatbot <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>
consciousness." Then we'd have a
trace-based test to perform on other <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> chatbots
*with similar computational structure*.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> Hell,
the cops have their tests for
consciousness executed at drunk <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> driving
checkpoints. Look up and touch your nose.
Recite the alphabet <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>
backwards. Etc. These are tests for types
of consciousness. Of course, <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> I feel
sure there are people who'd like to move
the goal posts and <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> claim
"That's not Consciousness with a big C."
Pffft. No typology ⇒ no <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> science.
So if someone can't list off a few
distinct types of <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>
consciousness, then it's not even
philosophy.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> On
10/18/22 13:12, Jochen Fromm wrote:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>> Paul
Buchheit asked on Twitter<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>> <a href="https://twitter.com/paultoo/status/1582455708041113600" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/paultoo/status/1582455708041113600</a><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>> "Is
consciousness measurable, or is it just a
philosophical concept? If an AI claims to
be conscious, how do we know that it's not
simply faking/imitating consciousness? Is
there something that I could challenge it
with to prove/disprove consciousness?"<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>> What
do you think? Interesting question.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">>> -J.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">> -- <br>
</div>
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