<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hard to imagine a computer saying \u201cthat\u2019s disgusting\u201d with conviction.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ps: anyone know what happened to Jan Hauser? I can\u2019t reach him from California.He did have a heart event'<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 19, 2022, at 12:10 PM, Russ Abbott <<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com" class="">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;">The test is whether reasonably appropriate emotions arise without the entity being told which emotions it should have--not whether it can generate text consistent with a specified emotion.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><br class=""></div><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><font class=""><u style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:20px" class=""> </u></font><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:24.75px" class=""> </span>-- Russ</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 4:55 PM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" class="">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-1300156356403978736"><u class=""></u><div class=""><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">Maybe lack of emotion, but ability to 'fake it' by <span style="" class=""><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:small" class="">repeating what it read a being with that emotion would say only proves the AI is a sociopath or psychopath.</span></span></span><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class=""><span style="" class=""><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:small" class="">davew</span></span></span><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class=""><span style="" class=""><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:small" class=""></span></span></span><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, at 4:44 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" id="m_-1300156356403978736qt" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">When Blake Lemoine claimed that LaMDA was conscious<span style="" class=""><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:small" class="">, it struck me that one way to test that would be to determine whether one could evoke an emotional response from it. You can't cause it physical pain since it doesn't have sense organs. But, one could ask it if it cares about anything. If so, threaten to harm whatever it is it cares about and see how it responds. A nice feature of this test, or something similar, is that you wouldn't tell it what the reasonable emotional responses might be. Otherwise, it could simply repeat what it read a being with that emotion would say.
One might argue that emotion is not a necessary element of consciousness, but I think a being without emotion would be at best a pale version of consciousness.
</span></span></span><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><span class=""><u style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:20px" class=""></u></span><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);line-height:24.75px" class=""><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:16.5px" class=""></span></span></span>-- Russ Abbott <br class=""></div><div class="">Professor Emeritus, Computer Science<br class=""></div><div class="">California State University, Los Angeles<br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 2:14 PM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank" class="">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><u class=""></u><br class=""></div><div class=""><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">I an concurrently reading, <i class="">Nineteen Ways of Looking at Consciousness</i>, by Patrick House and <i class="">Mountain in the Sea</i>, by Ray Nayler. The latter is fiction. (The former, because it deals with consciousness may also be fiction, but it purports to be neuro-scientific / philosophical.)<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">The novel is about Octopi and AI and an android, plus humans and juxtaposes ideas about consciousness in comparison and contrast. A lot of fun.<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">Both books pose some interesting questions and both support glen's advocacy of a typology.<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">davew<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, at 1:26 PM, glen wrote:<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> There are many different measures of *types* of consciousness. But <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> without specifying the type, such questions are not even philosophical. <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> They're nonsense.<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> For example, the test of whether one can recognize one's image in a <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> mirror couldn't be performed by a chatbot. But it is one of the <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> measures of consciousness. Another type of test would be those that <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> measure conscious state before, during, and after anesthesia. Again, <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> that wouldn't work the same for a chatbot. But both aggregate measures <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> like EEG and fMRI connectomes might have analogs in tracing for <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> algorithms like ANNs. If we could simply decide "Yes, *that* chatbot is <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> what we're going to call conscious and, therefore, the traced patterns <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> it exhibits in the profiler are the correlates for chatbot <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> consciousness." Then we'd have a trace-based test to perform on other <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> chatbots *with similar computational structure*.<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> Hell, the cops have their tests for consciousness executed at drunk <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> driving checkpoints. Look up and touch your nose. Recite the alphabet <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> backwards. Etc. These are tests for types of consciousness. Of course, <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> I feel sure there are people who'd like to move the goal posts and <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> claim "That's not Consciousness with a big C." Pffft. No typology \u21d2 no <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> science. So if someone can't list off a few distinct types of <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> consciousness, then it's not even philosophy.<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> On 10/18/22 13:12, Jochen Fromm wrote:<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">>> Paul Buchheit asked on Twitter<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">>> <a href="https://twitter.com/paultoo/status/1582455708041113600" target="_blank" class="">https://twitter.com/paultoo/status/1582455708041113600</a><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">>> <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">>> "Is consciousness measurable, or is it just a philosophical concept? If an AI claims to be conscious, how do we know that it's not simply faking/imitating consciousness? Is there something that I could challenge it with to prove/disprove consciousness?"<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">>> <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">>> What do you think? Interesting question.<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">>> <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">>> -J.<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> -- <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> \ua66e M\u0265\u01ddu \u01ddl\u01ddd\u0265\u0250u\u0287s \u025f\u1d09\u0183\u0265\u0287' \u0287\u0265\u01dd \u0183\u0279\u0250ss sn\u025f\u025f\u01dd\u0279s\u02d9 \ua66e<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank" class="">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> archives: 5/2017 thru present <br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank" class="">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:Arial" class="">> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank" class="">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br class=""></div></div><div class="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br class=""></div><div class=""> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class=""></div><div class=""> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br class=""></div><div class=""> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class=""></div><div class=""> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br class=""></div><div class=""> archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br class=""></div><div class=""> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><div class="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br class=""></div><div class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class=""></div><div class="">Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank" class="">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br class=""></div><div class="">to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class=""></div><div class="">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br class=""></div><div class="">archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank" class="">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br class=""></div><div class=""> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank" class="">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div></div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br class="">
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class="">
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br class="">
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class="">
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br class="">
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br class="">
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br class="">
</div></blockquote></div>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class="">Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" class="">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br class="">to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class="">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br class="">archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" class="">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br class=""> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" class="">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>