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DaveW -
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0e1910b2-a52e-4932-a908-3e6161790c92@app.fastmail.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">The central question: is there a difference between a 'model' of something and a 'theory' of something?</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>After reading your full description of your question and Eric's
own maunderings on (a tangent to?) the topic, I am both (over)full
of thoughts and at a loss.</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0e1910b2-a52e-4932-a908-3e6161790c92@app.fastmail.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">To me: a model is a representation of a subset of what we know about something; a theory is the complete body of knowledge.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I am at a loss because there are so many domains in which this
language can have similar but different meanings. Your reference
to Buddhist Cosmology and Mandalas being one, card-catalogs and
libraries another, and (esoteric) Science as exemplified by QM.
Your domain of interest/expression seems to be a bit more in the
realm of folksonomy (and beyond) elicitation/construction? The
goal of eliciting/creating a shared world-view (cosmology)?<br>
</p>
<p>I believe one of the more useful distinctions between model and
theory is that "a theory is a model which is testable". This
would only seem to apply to formal models and theories of
course. To what extent such formalisms apply to everyday
discourse or more loosely (less formal) attempts to describe the
world is perhaps what you are asking about?<br>
</p>
<p>Colloquially (and without support of my last statement) I take
Buddhist Cosmology to be (intended to be) a Theory... in fact a
"Theory of Everything" and any given Mandala to be a *model*. <br>
</p>
<p>The question of whether a card-catalog is a "model" devolves (I
think) to it being an "indexable model" or perhaps a model of the
library (or an idealized library such as the LOC or even Borges
"Library of Babel"? In your assertion that a model is a subset
of a theory, I think this is apt... this implementation
(physical cards in a physical drawer in a physical cabinet in a
physical building) of a model (of indices into the titles,
keywords and presumed contents of a body of written/visual
material) of a collection of same, exists within a larger "theory"
of how knowledge can be represented and organized.</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0e1910b2-a52e-4932-a908-3e6161790c92@app.fastmail.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">In my book-in-development I talk about how to create a shared theory by having people come together and tell stories about their domain. The telling of stories creates a shared theory of the domain (or some subset of it that is of immediate concern) that continues to exist—in the participant's heads. While the story telling proceeds two graphics are generated: one with the stories themselves (as 'index cards') and relations among stories, e.g., story a extends story b, story c provides an alternative case for a, x is a revision of a, etc.; and two, a Gestalt Map that shows objects as bubbles and connecting lines as relations among those objects.</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>I don't know that your project as described here aspires to come
up with a formal theory or set of models related to that theory so
much as to build a working methodology for building a shared
understanding/appreciation/agreement among groups of people
through structured storytelling? Maybe it is implied that
someone with a more scholarly bent/aspiration would either provide
a more formal backdrop for this project to register on, but that
is not the primary goal?</p>
<p>Two references come to mind for me here... the first is pretty
tangential but relevant because it has been referenced on-list
before and has a haunting resonance for me to what I heard when I
first read your description, and that is Herman <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Glass_Bead_Game">Hesse's
Glass Bead Game</a> which Stephen has brought up a few times.</p>
<p>The other is my recent discovery of <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://birchbarkbooks.com/products/sand-talk">Tyson
Yunkaporta's Sand Talk</a> where most relevantly to this
discussion he uses the term "Yarning" to describe something
parallel to what I think you are describing (the iterative
collecting/sharing/correlating of stories in a domain).</p>
<p>In Mathematical Logic (circling back to the more formal) there
are specific meanings ascribed to both model and theory that might
be useful for background. From the Wikipedia page on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_theory">Model Theory</a>:<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p><span style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;">In<span> </span></span><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic"
title="Mathematical logic" style="text-decoration: none;
color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background: none rgb(255, 255, 255);
font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">mathematical logic</a><span
style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;">,<span> </span></span><b
style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
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normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">model theory</b><span
style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;"><span> </span>is the study of the
relationship between<span> </span></span><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_(mathematical_logic)"
title="Theory (mathematical logic)" style="text-decoration:
none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background: none rgb(255, 255,
255); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">formal theories</a><span
style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
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normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;"><span> </span>(a collection of<span> </span></span><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_(mathematical_logic)"
title="Sentence (mathematical logic)" style="text-decoration:
none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background: none rgb(255, 255,
255); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">sentences</a><span
style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
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normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;"><span> </span>in a<span> </span></span><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_language"
title="Formal language" style="text-decoration: none; color:
rgb(6, 69, 173); background: none rgb(255, 255, 255);
font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">formal language</a><span
style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;"><span> </span>expressing statements
about a<span> </span></span><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_(mathematical_logic)"
title="Structure (mathematical logic)" style="text-decoration:
none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background: none rgb(255, 255,
255); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">mathematical structure</a><span
style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;">), and their models (those
structures in which the statements of the theory hold).</span><sup
id="cite_ref-1" class="reference" style="line-height: 1;
unicode-bidi: isolate; white-space: nowrap; font-weight: 400;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_theory#cite_note-1"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173);
background: none;">[1]</a></sup><span style="color: rgb(32,
33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
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255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
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initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><span> <br>
</span></span></p>
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<p>We haven't beaten the dead horse of metaphor here entirely yet,
but I will refer to Glen's most recent informal concession? that a
metaphor is (just?) a map or maybe more to the point it provides a
map from one domain to another. Technically I believe that is
what a model does as well, though a mathematical model maps into
the domain of mathematical language/structures while generally
metaphors ground out into a domain of human experience which may
or may not have subsequent iterative mappings into formal
mathematics. The "beating of a dead horse", for example,
references a complex set of notions about the very human
experience of "owning" another living being, expecting to elicit
work from it through physical punishment, etc. which can (and
surely has been) be abstracted into a more formal definition of
ownership, coercion, useful work, etc. but whose utility depends
more on the receiver's ability to imagine being the beater of a
*literal* draft animal whose death is a direct or indirect result
of previous and continued beatings.</p>
<p>I'll go check with Magister Ludi, Tyson Yunkaporta, Luis Borges
and the Venerable Losang Samtang for more perspective and if you
are lucky, keep the results to myself.</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0e1910b2-a52e-4932-a908-3e6161790c92@app.fastmail.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Those on the other side of the debate contend that these are models, just like the models they typically use in software development..
I say they are not, they are merely a form of 'external memory' a collection of evocative triggers whose sole purpose is to prompt a 'recall to mind' of the actual stories that were told involving those objects or those relations. The Gestalt Map, in my mind, represents nothing and could not—as is assumed about all other models—convey information to anyone who had not participated in the story telling session.
Specific questions:
1- Is the Wheel of Life mandala, (attached) a model of Tibetan Buddhist Cosmology? Or, does it merely serve the purpose of recalling to mind the stories that a Tibetan would have heard about the world and how it works.
2- Is a card catalog (forgive me, I am old) a model of a library, or even of its collection?
3- Are the Dewey Decimal or the Library of Congress numbering systems, models of human knowledge?
4- Is it correct to say that Quantum Physics has a superlative model, but no theory? (The dictum to, "to shut up and compute" seems to support an affirmative answer to this question.
5- is a metaphor a model?
For a short time, Model Driven Development garnered attention in software development: The idea was you could build a complete, accurate, and unambiguous model of a domain, then use a series of formal transforms (ala mathematics) to generate executable code. No one, outside of academia, believes this much anymore, but, in less drastic form, dominates all of software development and has nearly from the beginning, e.g., CASE and Rationale's 'round-trip-engineering'.
I am writing about what might be called Theory-Driven Development and it is important that I be able to explain the difference between theory and model.
Thanks for any thoughts any of you might have.
davew
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