<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable. That would enable solar power
to be distributed around the world. It would reduce the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar. Of course, you raise #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream. It would be nice to think there are things just to valuable to
destroy, but probably there are no such things.</span></div>
<div id="appendonsend"></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> on behalf of Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">What you are missing includes
<br>
1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.<br>
2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear fission plants<br>
3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore <<a href="mailto:gil.densmore@gmail.com">gil.densmore@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Ok so this is cool and all. <br>
</div>
<div>Sigh I'll ask <i>that</i> question. We want less carbons because <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E" target="_blank">the planet is on f'n fire</a> . As far as I know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.</div>
<div>So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by product are xrays gamma and some other
stuff with a lot of energy created would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.</div>
<div>I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner and safer than oil and coal I say)
<br>
</div>
<div>I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well</div>
<div>What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here. Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of reactors we already can do. Or
am I missing something?<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
<div><br>
</div>
<div> <a href="https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant" target="_blank">https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant</a><br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com" target="_blank">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><span>Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day. I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span><a href="https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance" target="_blank">https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance</a></span><br>
<span><a href="https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1" target="_blank">https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1</a></span><br>
<span><a href="https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started" target="_blank">https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started</a></span><br>
<span><a href="https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/" target="_blank">https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for remaining D vs T.</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>My understanding is that D-T fusion occurs at a lower temperature than D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I believe
the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal portions. An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume D more quickly, though as that commences,
the D/T ratio would go down, making D-T reactions (yet) more likely... tricky business, no wonder it has taken decades to get to this point?</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion" target="_blank">
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion</a></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span> <a href="https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really" target="_blank">https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really</a></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1</a></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions" target="_blank">https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions</a> <<a href="https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions" target="_blank">https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions</a>></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html" target="_blank">https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html</a> <<a href="https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html" target="_blank">https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html</a>></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and tritium, not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, you'd track the rarer part more closely, right?</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>DT = deuterium?</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>---</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>Frank C. Wimberly</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>140 Calle Ojo Feliz,</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>Santa Fe, NM 87505</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>505 670-9918</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>Santa Fe, NM</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com" target="_blank">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com" target="_blank">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> What is "DT"?</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE administrators talk:</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for maintaining symmetry. Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial precision of 5e-12 meter were needed. This was thought to be the main explanation for
the achievement.</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > 2. 8% more power on the laser this time</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > 3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules. Developing software to do the counting.</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > 4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and their components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > 5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 20% more efficient.</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > 6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > 7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > 8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and experimental data. (It sounded preliminary.)</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > 9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous experiments. However, previous experiments did show benefits from capsule quality.</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > 10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of experiments are other approaches to ignition. The rest are weapons and materials characterization.</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> ></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span> > 11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the summer runs. Fixed that.</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<span></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>-- </span><br>
<span>ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .</span><br>
<span>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><br>
<span>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span><br>
<span>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span><br>
<span>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><br>
<span>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span><br>
<span>1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>