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<p>Glen sed:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>Excellent! Thanks. Robinson's words sound a little Chicken
Little to me. But the focus on </i><i><span
class="moz-txt-underscore"><span class="moz-txt-tag">_</span>open<span
class="moz-txt-tag">_</span></span></i><i> is something
I'm committed to. I still waffle about whether the logic(s) of
the universe are open-ended (by which I mean truly novel
events and structures can occur) or not (by which I mean, all
seemingly new structures were programmed in the whole time,
which also implies things about the universality of any
singular logic). I want it to be open.
</i><i><br>
</i><i>
</i><i><br>
</i><i>And the only way we can falsify my tendency to believe it
is open is to find evidence that it's closed, to reduce
everything to a, one singular, GUT ... and, as time goes by,
I'm steadily being disabused of my beliefs in the openness of
anything. But even if everything's closed, there are
sub-problems therein, </i><i><b class="moz-txt-star"><span
class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>interesting<span
class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b></i><i> ways in which it
is closed that make it </i><i><b class="moz-txt-star"><span
class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>seem<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b></i><i>
open. Systems that might tolerate multiple types of closure,
where some relations are closed and others open. Etc. That's
why logic(s) that tolerate inconsistency are so cool (to me).
<br>
</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>I like this formulation. <br>
</p>
<p>I've a friend who describes this as: "The laws of the universe
might be pre-determined but the outcomes are not pre-stateable"
another way of stating the "halting problem" in a cosmic rather
than just CS/Algorithmic context?</p>
<p>I am just now (this past month or so) returning to my own
maunderings that come and go on the implications of Quantum Theory
and in particular according to variations on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Archibald_Wheeler">Wheeler's
Participatory Anthropic Principle</a>. It *feels* like this
implies both "open" AND "closed", based on *framing*. <br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p>"All things are possible, only some are more *interesting* than
others?" <br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Ensemble members of such an ensemble multiverse include many
where "causal" logics do not hold, but in those, what *we* know of
as consciousness would have not meaning/traction, so *we* (being
apparently conscious by some definition?) or anything recognizable
to us as conscious would not exist therein?</p>
<p>This, of course, is sweetly confounded by your ideation "<i>That's
why logic(s) that tolerate inconsistency are so cool (to me)."
</i>(or maybe I'm trying to be too consistent in my thinking about
what qualifies for consistence?)<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>"The universe is flux, life is opinion"</i> - Marcus
Aurelius</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Stumble,</p>
<p> - Steve</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/19/23 10:05 AM, Steve Smith wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1aaa690c-9e0b-871d-c25b-ccefe6dbf7d0@swcp.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>I coined a new subject to relieve DaveW from having to see his
name over and over... <br>
</p>
<p>I'm sympathetic with *all* the points of view expressed here,
though not always simultaneously ;)<br>
</p>
<p>As <i>homo faber</i> and <i>homo sapiens</i>, it is natural
that we have instincts and cultural habits around "making" and
"thinking" our way out of our predicaments and it might not be
too surprising if there were a (collective) Dunning-Kruger
effect in our society helping to drive us forward from being the
early hominids whose ability with broken stones and sharpened
sticks to the mutual-assured-destruction/climate-collapse
collective creatures that we have become.</p>
<p>It is deep in my nature to want to fiddle with things (make)
and ideas (think) whether experience tells me that it turns out
well or not. I am probably more likely to "muck" with things
than many here, so I am (therefore) sympathetic with ideas which
in the extreme become things like "geoengineering" and
"post/trans humanism" and it is hard for me NOT to cheer every
SpaceX launch and the science-fiction trope of humanity
spreading to fill the solar system (Moon, Mars,
Main/Kuiper/Trojan Asteroids, ice/gas giant moons, cum-Dyson
Sphere) and the Galaxy(ies)! <br>
</p>
<p>Yet, I cringe a little every time we throw over some "evil we
(think we) know" for some mirage of a bit of "pie in the sky"
(pie in your eye?). This makes me *such* a wet-blanket
neo-luddite on virtually every topic, whilst being a bit of a
split personality at the same time, cheering/hurrying toward the
inevitable moment when "the next cool thing" becomes "WTF,
didn't anyone think before they did that?" answered by "it
seemed like a good idea at the time"!<br>
</p>
<p>But I also have a fondness for ideating on what it would mean
for humans to "slow our roll" and "look inward" (both personally
and collectively) long enough for the earth-systems we are
running over/overdriving to catch up. But it might be deep in
our "survival instincts" to optimize and leverage at every
opportunity even if sometimes it looks like we are nothing but
techno-utopian lemmings diving off a cliff of complexity of our
own making. "Be fecund, multiply, and innovate like crazy!"<br>
</p>
<p>It can be hard (or weirding) to live across this spectrum and
therefore tend to time-multiplex between those extremes, trying
to remember enough of one while I'm experiencing the other for
some of the "tempering" DaveW references.<br>
</p>
<p>We talk here often of predictive vs explanatory models, of
epistimology and ontologies. And in this thread "what would
change your mind?" which is similar to "how do you know what you
know?". My own answer to the first question is roughly "I
won't know until it happens" and the second is "I don't know,
but I am always interested in finding out (more)"</p>
<p>Mumble,</p>
<p> - Steve<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/19/23 8:52 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6a349ae6-714e-49e1-94cc-d7d7cbbf0c32@app.fastmail.com">
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">My optimism is tempered, and
less than Pieters.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><i>"When we contemplate the
shocking derangement of human affairs which now prevails in
most civilized countries, including our own, even the best
minds are puzzled and uncertain in their attempts to grasp
the situation.The world seems to demand a moral and economic
regeneration which it is dangerous to postpone, but as yet
impossible to imagine, let alone direct.</i><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><i>We have unprecedented
conditions to deal with and novel adjustments to make—there
can be no doubt of that. We also have a great stock of
scientific knowledge unknown to our grandfathers with which
to operate. So novel are the conditions, so copious the
knowledge, that we must undertake the arduous task of
reconsidering a great part of the opinions about man and his
relations to his fellow-men which have been handed down to
us by previous generations who lived in far other conditions
and who possessed far less information about the world and
themselves.</i><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><b><i>We have, however, first to
create an unprecedented attitude of mind to cope with
unprecedented conditions, and to utilize unprecedented
knowledge. This is the preliminary. and most difficult,
step to be taken—far more difficult that one would suspect
who fails to realize that in order to take it we must
overcome inveterate natural tendencies and artificial
habits of long standing. How are we to put ourselves in a
position to think of thiigs that we not only never though
of before, but are most reluctant to question? In short,
how are we to rid ourselves of our fond prejudices and <u>open
our minds</u>?</i></b>"<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Those words are from someone few
have heard of: James Harvey Robinson, from his book <i>The
Mind in the Making</i> published, originally, in 1921.
(republished in 2017 by Vigeo Press)<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">The optimism of Altman you
quoted is, in my opinion, possible only if we can "open our
minds" and shed antiquated minds and counter-productive modes
of thinking.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Robinson, by the way does not
propose an alternative, per se, but does an excellent job of
baring the various kinds of thinking and their origins fro the
"savage mind" to the scientific revolution.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, at 4:17 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><b><span class="font" style="font-family:comic sans
ms, sans-serif;">Sadly, there are some hidden
elements to all that techno-optimism.</span></b><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, sadly the world is unequal and those at the
bottom of the economic ladder just don't get a good
deal.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the positive side, looking back at the history of
mankind there is evidence that it is now better to live
than ever in the past for the large majority of
humankind. This is true even though it is the sad truth
that it's very far from perfect; human suffering is a
reality, Glen's comment is sad but true.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The question of course is whether it will continue to
go better?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's just impossible to know the future. One person
can believe it'll go better in the future, another that
it'll be worse, each with tons of good arguments.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I for one, embrace the optimism of Sam Altman, just
for completeness I repeat his quote and give the
reference again.<br>
</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Montserrat, sans-serif;"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12px;">"Intelligence
and energy have been the fundamental limiters
towards most things we want. A future where these
are not the limiting reagents will be radically
different, and can be amazingly better."<br>
</span></span></span>Taken from <a
href="https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms</a> : <span
style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Montserrat, sans-serif;"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12px;"> <br>
<br>
In conclusion, yes I agree with Glen that there
are sadly hidden elements to all the
techno-optimism. but this does not dampen my
enthusiasm for the future triggered by abundant
intelligence and energy.</span></span></span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="qt-gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Wed, 18 Jan 2023
at 21:08, glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote"
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,
204,
204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1px;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that
techno-optimism. E.g.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <a
href="https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m</a><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> On 1/18/23 00:40, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:<br>
</div>
<div> > I totally agree that realizable behavior is
what matters.<br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> > The elephant in the room is whether AI (and
robotics of course) will (not to replace but to) be
able to do better than humans in all respects,
including come up with creative solutions to not only
the world's most pressing problems but also small
creative things like writing poems, and then to do the
mental and physical tasks required to provide goods
and services to all in the world,<br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> > Sam Altman said there are two things that
will shape our future; intelligence and energy. If we
have real abundant intelligence and energy, the world
will be very different indeed.<br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> > To quote Sam Altmen at <a
href="https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms</a>
<<a
href="https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms</a>>
:<br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> > "intelligence and energy have been the
fundamental limiters towards most things we want. A
future where these are not the limiting reagents will
be radically different, and can be amazingly better."<br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> > On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels
<<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> > Definitions are all fine and good, but
realizable behavior is what matters. Analog
computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will
be leakage between components. A large network of
transistors or neurons are sufficiently similar for my
purposes. The unrolling would be inside a skull, so
somewhat isolated from interference.<br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> > -----Original Message-----<br>
</div>
<div> > From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
On Behalf Of glen<br>
</div>
<div> > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM<br>
</div>
<div> > To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW<br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> > I don't quite grok that. A crisp
definition of recursion implies no interaction with
the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the
ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying
about from an unrolled recursion might be seen and
used by outsiders. That's not to say a trespasser
can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But
unrolled seems more "open" to family, friends, and the
occasional acquaintance.<br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> > On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
</div>
<div> > > I probably didn't pay enough
attention to the thread some time ago on
serialization, but to me recursion is hard to
distinguish from an unrolling of recursion.<br>
</div>
<div> > <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> -- <br>
</div>
<div> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ<br>
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