<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
Tom -<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABg8s8JxZGVwTiGGQLBfwZnPPxDztf2Ue4J8ki=5dxM-T5Chhw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Maybe you’re overthinking this topic. </div>
</blockquote>
<p>I think that's a given!</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABg8s8JxZGVwTiGGQLBfwZnPPxDztf2Ue4J8ki=5dxM-T5Chhw@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">To quote Bucky Fuller:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">“Today the world is my backyard. ‘Where do you
live?’ and ‘What are you?’ are progressively less sensible
questions. I live on earth at present, and I don’t know what I
am. I know that I am not a category. I am not a thing—a noun. I
seem to be a verb, an evolutionary process—an integral function
of the universe.”<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">TJ</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at
11:23 AM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p>Might I offer some terminology reframing, or at least
ask for some additional explication?<br>
</p>
<ol>
<li>I think "behaviours" would be all Nick's Martians
*could* observe? They would be inferring
"experiences" from observed behaviours?<br>
</li>
<li>When we talk about "categories" here, are we talking
about "categories of being"? Ontologies, as it
were? </li>
</ol>
<p>Regarding ErisS' reflections... I *do* think that
animals behave *as if* they "have categories", though I
don't know what it even means to say that they "have
categories" in the way Aristotle and his
legacy-followers (e.g. us) do... I would
suggest/suspect that dogs and squirrels are in no way
aware of these "categories" and that to say that they do
is a projection by (us) humans who have fabricated the
(useful in myriad contexts) of a
category/Category/ontology. So in that sense they do
NOT *have* categories... I think in this
conception/thought-experiment we assume that Martians
*would* and would be looking to map their own ontologies
onto the behaviour (and inferred experiences and
judgements?) of Terran animals?<br>
</p>
<p>If I were to invert the subject/object relation, I
would suggest that it is "affordances" not "experiences"
(or animals' behaviours) we want to categorize into
ontologies? It is what things are "good for" that make
them interesting/similar/different to living beings.
And "good for" is conditionally contextualized. My dog
and cat both find squirrels "good for" chasing, but so
too for baby rabbits and skunks (once).<br>
</p>
<p>Or am I barking up the wrong set of reserved lexicons?</p>
<p>To segue (as I am wont to do), it feels like this
discussion parallels the one about LLMs where we train
the hell out of variations on learning classifier
systems until they are as good as (or better than) we
(humans) are at predicting the next token in a string of
human-generated tokens (or synthesizing a string of
tokens which humans cannot distinguish from a string
generated by another human, in particular one with the
proverbial 10,000 hours of specialized training). The
fact that or "ologies" tend to be recorded and organized
as knowledge structures and in fact usually *propogated*
(taught/learnt) by the same makes us want to believe
(some of us) that hidden inside these LLMs are precisely
the same "ologies" we encode in our myriad textbooks and
professional journal articles? <br>
</p>
<p>I think one of the questions that remains present
within this group's continued 'gurgitations is whether
the organizations we have conjured are particularly
special, or just one of an infinitude of superposed
alternative formulations? And whether some of those
formulations are acutely occult and/or abstract and
whether the existing (accepted) formulations (e.g.
Western Philosophy and Science, etc) are uniquely (and
exclusively or at least optimally) capable of
capturing/describing what is "really real" (nod to
George Berkeley).</p>
<p>Some here (self included) may often suggest that such
formulation is at best a coincidence of history and as
well as it "covers" a description of "reality", it is by
circumstance and probably by abstract conception ("all
models are wrong...") incomplete and in error. But
nevertheless still useful...<br>
</p>
<p>Maybe another way of reframing Nick's question (on a
tangent) is to ask whether the Barsoomians had their own
Aristotle to conceive of Categories? Or did they train
their telescopes on ancient Greece and learn Latin Lip
Reading and adopt one or more the Greek's philosophical
traditions? And then, did the gas-balloon creatures
floating in the atmosphere-substance of Jupiter observe
the Martians' who had observed the Greeks and thereby
come up with their own Categories. Maybe it was those
creatures who beamed these abstractions straight into
the neural tissue of the Aristotelians and Platonists?
Do gas-balloon creatures even have solids to be
conceived of as Platonic? And are they missing out if
they don't? Do they have their own Edwin Abbot Abbot?
And what would the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Egg"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Cheela</a> say?<br>
</p>
<p>My dog and the rock squirrels he chases want to know...
so do the cholla cactus fruits/segments they hoard in
their nests!</p>
<p>Mumble,</p>
<p> - Steve<br>
</p>
<div>On 2/16/23 5:37 AM, Santafe wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre style="font-family:monospace">It’s the tiniest and most idiosyncratic take on this question, but FWIW, here:
<a href="https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1520752113" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1520752113</a>
I actually think that all of what Nick says below is a perfectly good draft of a POV.
As to whether animals “have” categories: Spend time with a dog. Doesn’t take very much time. Their interest in conspecifics is (ahem) categorically different from their interest in people, different than to squirrels, different than to cats, different than to snakes.
For me to even say that seems like cueing a narcissism of small differences, when overwhelmingly, their behavior is structured around categories, as is everyone else’s. Squirrels don’t mistake acorns for birds of prey. Or for the tree limbs and house roofs one can jump onto. Or for other squirrels. It’s all categories. Behavior is an operation on categories.
I found it interesting that you invoked “nouns” as a framework that is helpful but sometimes obstructive. One might just have said “words”. This is interesting to me already, because my syntactician friends will tell you that a noun is not, as we were taught as children, a “word for a person, place, or thing”, but rather a “word in a language that transforms as nouns transform in that language”, which is a bit of an obfuscation, since they do have in common that they are in some way “object-words”. But from the polysemy and synonymy perspective, we see that “meanings” cross the noun-verb syntactic distinction quite frequently for some categories. Eye/see, ear/hear, moon/shine, and stuff like that. My typologist friends tell me that is common but particular to some meanings much more than others.
Another fun thing I was told by Ted Chiang a few months ago, which I was amazed I had not heard from linguists, and still want to hold in reserve until I can check it further. He says that languages without written forms do not have a word for “word”. If true, that seems very interesting and important. If Chiang believes it to be true, it is probably already a strong enough regularity to be more-or-less true, and thus still interesting and important.
Eric
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre style="font-family:monospace">On Feb 15, 2023, at 1:19 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true"><thompnickson2@gmail.com></a> <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true"><thompnickson2@gmail.com></a> wrote:
FWiW, I willmake every effort to arrive fed to Thuam by 10.30 Mountain. I want to hear the experts among you hold forth on WTF a cateogory actually IS. I am thinking (duh) that a category is a more or less diffuse node in a network of associations (signs, if you must). Hence they constitute a vast table of what goes with what, what is predictable from what, etc. This accommodates “family resemblance” quite nicely. Do I think animals have categories, in this sense, ABSOLUTELY EFFING YES. Does this make me a (shudder) nominalist? I hope not.
Words…nouns in particular… confuse this category business. Words place constraints on how vague these nodes can be. They impose on the network constraints to which it is ill suited. True, the more my associations with “horse” line up with your associations with “horse”, the more true the horse seems. Following Peirce, I would say that where our nodes increasingly correspond with increasing shared experience, we have evidence ot the (ultimate) truth of the nodes, their “reality” in Peirce’s terms. Here is where I am striving to hang on to Peirce’s realism.
The reason I want the geeks to participate tomorrow is that I keep thinking of a semantic webby thing that Steve devised for the Institute about a decade ago. Now a semantic web would be a kind of metaphor for an associative web; don’t associate with other words in exactly the same manner in which experiences associate with other experiences. Still, I think the metaphor is interesting. Also, I am kind of re-interested in my “authorial voice”, how much it operates like cbt.
Rushing,
Nick
From: Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 10:29 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Thuram still happening?
Well shoot..... that would do it.... Thank you!
On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 12:28 PM Frank Wimberly <a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true"><wimberly3@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre style="font-family:monospace">Today is Wednesday, isn't it?
---
Frank C. Wimberly
<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,+%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true">140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505</a>
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 10:19 AM Eric Charles <a href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre style="font-family:monospace">Are the Thursday online meetings still happening? I missed a few weeks due to work piling up meetings on, but I'm trying to log in now, and it looks like the meeting hasn't started.
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style="font-family:monospace">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style="font-family:monospace">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,FEcM3n2N8Gs5MTUutRBIABU45ZqhXPjD7yDV61E8A46MwSuCYheqzY97VzQXxPyPhlMAN14a6P8QOjWgbG-o2q8dDQMAoDArA7sYuY3OiPxwzV9zSQE,&typo=1" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,FEcM3n2N8Gs5MTUutRBIABU45ZqhXPjD7yDV61E8A46MwSuCYheqzY97VzQXxPyPhlMAN14a6P8QOjWgbG-o2q8dDQMAoDArA7sYuY3OiPxwzV9zSQE,&typo=1</a>
to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,Iy_C5hWTc7JWWNsir9kPkqFi3z5xbiEIDWcEvGcmJf0h00K8gB-vjHC_9UcU9tnXMUmrTnhEEiGUCBRGuzk32cUdLlf3Zc-c7Fs-1FFs8_9M6uU-&typo=1" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,Iy_C5hWTc7JWWNsir9kPkqFi3z5xbiEIDWcEvGcmJf0h00K8gB-vjHC_9UcU9tnXMUmrTnhEEiGUCBRGuzk32cUdLlf3Zc-c7Fs-1FFs8_9M6uU-&typo=1</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,XpVT-4xoB0pEiBDssLbaBLw0MuyRhHkl2pSEcrXovkftM87tDk7xE18V-8fdYjV2cTzAcd8hGM2cLP7ro3EJDkyLi6ydomulA9St_V2yuuXStXOuG6iP&typo=1" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,XpVT-4xoB0pEiBDssLbaBLw0MuyRhHkl2pSEcrXovkftM87tDk7xE18V-8fdYjV2cTzAcd8hGM2cLP7ro3EJDkyLi6ydomulA9St_V2yuuXStXOuG6iP&typo=1</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,cKOgfrXoVF526iWVOTZj5Gocz7R3rDNPXs0i-zYiexciO3h8ktMwSs2KREG0RDsUNthYKq94M9BZRNRIW8sOVbq3OXHvLrA5DcHsclshoAYcS2bewUR99w,,&typo=1" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,cKOgfrXoVF526iWVOTZj5Gocz7R3rDNPXs0i-zYiexciO3h8ktMwSs2KREG0RDsUNthYKq94M9BZRNRIW8sOVbq3OXHvLrA5DcHsclshoAYcS2bewUR99w,,&typo=1</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style="font-family:monospace">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. ---
-.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>============================================<br>
Tom Johnson - <a href="mailto:tom@jtjohnson.com"
style="display:inline!important" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">tom@jtjohnson.com</a><br>
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA<br>
505.577.6482(c)
505.473.9646(h)<br>
<b>Visit <a href="https://globalsantafe.org/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Global Santa Fe</a></b></div>
<div>============================================</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>