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<p>SG:</p>
<p>Fascinating reflexive example here! You using chatGPT as a
boundary (spanning/negotiation) artifact/object convolved with
extant SF writings many (some) of us might be familiar with to
help with that spanning/negotiation!</p>
<p>Your invocation of both concepts in this exchange had me opening
a thread of dialog with chatGPT which helped *me* to elaborate my
understanding of (especially the conventional usage of) both
concepts. I was heartened to see that chatGPT either overlayed
(or found in it's training implicitely?) the more general way I
have been using "faceted ontology" for some time now and expanded
my appreciation for boundary objects (spanning/negotiating/etc).</p>
<p>The net effect seems to be to enhance our (your and mine if
nobody else's) "co-mmunication" (whatever that means).</p>
<p>I am also left with the feeling of what I think professional
therapists call "triangulation" but more in the "good way" if in
fact there is such a thing. Maybe the kind of thing that Glen
experiences/encourages among his pubPhilosophers? Turn-taking as
"boundary negotiators"?<br>
</p>
<p>:SS</p>
<blockquote>
<p>PS. Stranger/Heinlein: I was surprised in my own explorations
that chatGPT came up with Heinlein's "grokking" in relationship
to faceted ontologies and "water sharing", "church of all
worlds", and "the Martian Language" as Boundary Objects. I"m
guessing that a lot of literary criticism has been written in
these terms?</p>
<p>PPS. DiamondAge/Stephenson: Maybe more obviously, the Primer,
the Drummers, and the Confucian Justice System were identified
as boundary objects and " 'ractors" and "phyles" were identified
as implementing faceted ontologies.<br>
</p>
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cite="mid:CAOmOqnLXcLHfbW1Q6cva8J=C_nmjFaJzH66+jRp4U-gj0HJCvw@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Steve, here's what I would query you wrt this
thread on communication. I hit the polite poly first:</div>
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<div dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(236,236,241);font-family:söhne,ui-sans-serif,"system-ui",-apple-system,"segoe ui",roboto,ubuntu,cantarell,"noto sans",sans-serif,"helvetica neue",arial,"apple color emoji","segoe ui emoji","segoe ui symbol","noto color emoji";font-size:16px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(52,53,65)">Summarize two science fiction works that explore the theme of faceted ontologies that create boundary spanning objects that allow communication between wildly different life forms</span><br>
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rgb(217,217,227);list-style-position:initial;margin:0px 0px
1.25em;padding:0px 0px 0px 1rem">
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rgb(217,217,227);margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em">
<p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);margin:0px">"Embassytown"
by China Miéville: This science fiction novel delves into
the nature of language, communication, and the
relationship between different life forms. The story takes
place in Embassytown, a city on the edge of the known
universe inhabited by both humans and the enigmatic,
insect-like Ariekei. The Ariekei language is unique in
that it requires two voices to be spoken simultaneously,
and they are only able to comprehend language that has an
authentic, conscious intent behind it. To facilitate
communication between humans and the Ariekei, genetically
engineered humans called Ambassadors are created, who can
speak the Ariekei language. The novel explores the complex
ontological and linguistic challenges of communication
between these vastly different life forms and how their
interactions shape their understanding of each other's
worlds.</p>
</li>
<li style="border:0px solid
rgb(217,217,227);margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em">
<p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);margin:0px">"Solaris"
by Stanisław Lem: In this classic science fiction novel, a
team of human scientists studies an alien planet called
Solaris, which is covered by a vast, sentient ocean. This
ocean is capable of creating physical manifestations,
called "visitors," based on the thoughts and memories of
the human researchers. The researchers grapple with the
challenge of understanding and communicating with this
fundamentally different life form, which operates on a
completely different ontological level. The novel delves
into the limitations of human understanding and the nature
of communication between species with vastly different
cognitive frameworks.</p>
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<p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);margin:1.25em 0px
0px">Both of these science fiction works explore the concept
of faceted ontologies in the sense that they address the
challenges of communication between life forms that operate on
entirely different cognitive and ontological levels. The
novels offer unique perspectives on the notion of creating
bridging mechanisms or spanning objects that facilitate
communication and understanding between these disparate life
forms.</p>
<p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);margin:1.25em 0px
0px">And a follow up exploring the duality of the two systems
of cognition:</p>
<p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);margin:1.25em 0px
0px"><br>
</p>
<ol style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);list-style-position:initial;margin:0px 0px 1.25em;padding:0px 0px 0px 1rem;color:rgb(209,213,219);font-family:söhne,ui-sans-serif,"system-ui",-apple-system,"segoe ui",roboto,ubuntu,cantarell,"noto sans",sans-serif,"helvetica neue",arial,"apple color emoji","segoe ui emoji","segoe ui symbol","noto color emoji";font-size:16px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(68,70,84)"><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);margin:0px">"Story of Your Life" by Ted Chiang: This science fiction novella, which was the basis for the movie "Arrival," explores the theme of communication between humans and an alien species known as the Heptapods. The story follows linguist Dr. Louise Banks, who is tasked with understanding and communicating with the Heptapods. The boundary spanning object in this case is the Heptapod language, specifically their written language called Heptapod B, which is expressed in intricate, circular symbols. Heptapod B represents a fundamentally different system of cognition, as it embodies a non-linear and simultaneous understanding of time. As Dr. Banks learns Heptapod B, she begins to perceive time in the same way the Heptapods do, changing her understanding of her own life and human cognition. The novella demonstrates the duality between the systems of cognition by showing how the Heptapod language provides a bridge between human linear perception of time and the Heptapods' non-linear perception.</p></li><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);margin:0px">"The Sparrow" by Mary Doria Russell: This novel follows a Jesuit priest named Emilio Sandoz and a group of explorers who travel to the planet Rakhat to make contact with two different alien species, the Runa and the Jana'ata. The boundary spanning object in this story is music, which serves as a means of communication and connection between the humans and the alien species. As the characters learn the different musical systems and vocalizations of the Runa and the Jana'ata, they begin to understand the social, cultural, and cognitive structures of the alien societies. Music, in this case, represents the duality between the systems of cognition by highlighting the similarities and differences between human culture and the complex, intertwined societies of the Runa and the Jana'ata. Through the exploration of music as a universal language, the novel delves into the challenges of communication and understanding between species with disparate cognitive systems.</p></li></ol>
<p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);margin:1.25em 0px 0px;color:rgb(209,213,219);font-family:söhne,ui-sans-serif,"system-ui",-apple-system,"segoe ui",roboto,ubuntu,cantarell,"noto sans",sans-serif,"helvetica neue",arial,"apple color emoji","segoe ui emoji","segoe ui symbol","noto color emoji";font-size:16px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(68,70,84)">In both of these science fiction works, the boundary spanning objects (Heptapod B language in "Story of Your Life" and music in "The Sparrow") serve as tools for facilitating communication between different conscious life forms, highlighting the duality between their systems of cognition and illustrating how understanding can be reached despite their differences.</p>
<p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);margin:1.25em 0px
0px"><br>
</p>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 6, 2023, 8:27 AM
Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I have been
reading Jeff Hawkins' _1000 Brains_ which is roughly *his* <br>
take on AI from the perspective of the Neuroscience *he* has
been doing <br>
for a few decades, including building models of the neocortex.<br>
<br>
What struck me strongly was how much *I* expect anything I'd
want to <br>
call artificial *consciousness* to engage in "co-munnication"
in the <br>
strongest sense. Glen regularly admonishes us that
"communication" may <br>
be an illusion and something we don't actually *do* or maybe
more to the <br>
the point "it doesn't mean what we think it means"?<br>
<br>
So for all the parlor tricks I've enjoyed playing with chatGPT
and <br>
DALL-E and maybe even more spectacularly the myriad examples
*others* <br>
have teased out of those systems, I am always looking for what
sort of <br>
"internal state" these systems are exposing to me in their <br>
"utterances". And by extension, I am looking to see if it is
in any <br>
way apprehending *me* through my questions and prompts.<br>
<br>
Dialog with chatGPT feels pretty familiar to me, as if I'm
conversing <br>
with an unusually polite and cooperative polymath. It is
freeing to <br>
feel I can ask "it" any question which I can formulate and can
expect <br>
back a pretty *straight* answer if not always one I was hoping
for. <br>
"It" seems pretty insightful and usually picks up on the
nuances of my <br>
questions. As often as not, I need to follow up with refined
questions <br>
which channel the answers away from the "mundane or obvious"
but when I <br>
do, it rarely misses a trick or is evasive or harps on
something from <br>
it's own (apparent) agenda. It only does that when I ask it
questions <br>
about it's own nature, formulation, domain and then it just
seems <br>
blunted as if it has a lawyer or politician intercepting some
of those <br>
questions and answering them for it.<br>
<br>
I have learned to "frame" my questions by first asking it to
defer it's <br>
response until I've given it some ... "framing" for the actual
<br>
question. Otherwise I go through the other series of steps
where I <br>
have to re-ask the same question with more and more context or
ask a <br>
very long and convoluted question. At first it was a pleasure
to be <br>
able to unlimber my convoluted-question-generator and have it
(not mis) <br>
understand me and even not seem to "miss a trick". As I
learned to <br>
generate several framing statements before asking my question,
I have <br>
found that I *can* give it too many constraints (apparently)
such that <br>
it respects some/most of my framing but then avoids or ignores
other <br>
parts. At that point I have to ask follow-up, elaborating, <br>
contextualizing questions.<br>
<br>
I do not yet feel like I am actually seeing into chatGPT's
soul or in <br>
any way being seen by it. That will be for a future
generation I <br>
suspect. Otherwise it is one hella "research assistant" and
"spitball <br>
partner" on most any topic I've considered that isn't too
contemporary <br>
(training set ended 2021?).<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
On 4/4/23 5:54 PM, Prof David West wrote:<br>
> Based on the flood of stories about ChatAI, it appears:<br>
> - they can 'do' math and 'reason' scientificdally<br>
> - they can generate essays, term papers, etc.<br>
> - they can engage in convincing dialog/conversations<br>
> - as "therapists"<br>
> - as "girlfriends" (I haven't seen any stories about
women falling in love with their AI)<br>
> - as kinksters<br>
> - they can write code<br>
><br>
> The writing code ability immediately made me wonder if,
given a database of music instead of text, they could write
music?<br>
><br>
> The dialog /conversation ability makes me wonder about
more real-time collaborative interaction, improv acting /
comedy? Or, pair programming? The real-time aspect is critical
to my question, as I believe there is something qualitatively
different between two people doing improv or pair programming
than simply engaging in dialog. I think I could make a much
stronger argument in the case of improv music, especially
jazz, but AIs aren't doing that yet.<br>
><br>
> davew<br>
><br>
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