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<p>DaveW -</p>
<p>As you might guess, my sympathies are fairly aligned with your
point.</p>
<p>A few aphorisms:</p>
<ol>
<li>If you can't tell the difference, it doesn't matter</li>
<li>I am who you think I think I am</li>
<li>I am life which wills to live amongst life which wills to live<br>
</li>
</ol>
<p>The first is offered in the spirit that my clone, my proxy, a
simulacrum of me, is close enough to being me that for many
*first-order* purposes is "indistinguishable" from me and whomever
interacts with/responds to/engages that stand-in will come away
with the same experience they would have had it actually been
me. Of course, since *I* will not have had the interaction, my
inner state will not be the same and future (first or Nth orders)
interactions will not be the same and the original folks who
interacted with my stand-in will be working on a misapprehension
about who I am going forward...<br>
</p>
<p>The second ties in directly, in that I am no longer who you think
I think I am once I have (not) had that interaction which then
gets compounded if I do(n't) engage directly in subsequent
interactions. And you are no longer who I think you think you are
because you had an interaction with "me" that in fact never
happened?<br>
</p>
<p>The third references the idea that we (humans but also all living
organisms) are not just atomic objects which "am what we am" but
rather the effective "standing waves" that are set up amongst the
myriad other life forms we engage with (most notably, but not
exclusively, our microbiome, our food sources, and any predators
we might have)</p>
<p>In the current context of AI "mimicing" the work of specific or
archetypical individuals I think all three aphorisms have
relevance despite the fact that to "first order" those interacting
with my stand-in might well have an indistinguishable
experience... <br>
</p>
<p>Perhaps the next step (already under deployment) for AI is a
literal "agent" which not only acts in my stead but also provides
(filtered/digested) feedback to me such that up to some delta,
those who I interact with (through my agent) cannot tell the
difference and my own inner-state evolves somewhat parallel to
what it might have had I not had the agent between me and the
world. Of course, as with a talent/professional agent, there may
be more value added than simply noise-reduction.</p>
<p>Today I could, I suppose, quit reading FriAM messages and instead
cut-paste the messages into GPT-4, asking for a summary of some
sort and maybe draft a suitably pith(ss)y response that I might
then cut-paste with/without editing. Of course, the more context
(all ~20 years of the archives?) would be useful to improve the
quality/fidelity of those summaries/analysis and responses in my
"Voice".</p>
<p>Mumble,</p>
<p> - Steve<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/17/23 9:58 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">My sympathies would be with your
friend—until such time as a<b><i><u> "clone exactly like her ...
behavior, words, or even existence..." </u></i></b>was
demonstrated.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">"Exactly" is a big word! and I
would add "completely."<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Even on a single dimension, say
use of language, the standard of exact and complete is hard to
satisfy.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I have no problem believing that a
chat-bot could write an academic paper or either of my books;
put together, and deliver in my voice, a lecture ; play
bar-trivia at the pub; or carry on a convincing conversation. I
have no doubt that, in the very near future, the same bot might
be able to project a video that included mannerisms and
simulation of the way I pace around a classroom.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">But exactitude would require, not
only, all the things I do do, and the idiosyncrasies in the way
that I do them, but also the idiosyncrasies of my inabilities: I
can never get the crossword clues involving popular culture, for
example.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">If a clone is built that "walks
like a duck and quacks like a duck" but does not migrate or lay
eggs; is it really a duck?<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I would concede the equivalence
issue of means or mechanisms behind the observable; e.g., it
does not matter if the observed behavior results from electrons
in gold wires or electrons in dendrites. But I would at least
raise the question as to whether, in specific instances, a
'subjective' behind the behavior is or is not critical.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">For example, and forgive the
personal, you have mentioned being in pain all of your life.
Would it be necessary for a bot to "feel pain" as you have in
order to "act exactly like you?" Or is there an "algorithmic
equivalent" possible for the bot to utilize in order to obtain
unerring verisimilitude?<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Then there is the whole question
of experience in general. Would <b><u><i>I</i></u></b> really
be <b><i><u>me</u></i></b>, sans the LSD trips over the years?
If not, then how will the bot "calculate" for itself, identical
or at least highly similar, experience equivalents.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Even if, in principle, it were
possible to devise algorithms and programs that did result in
behavior that mimicked Dave at every stage of its existence,
will those algorithms be invented and programs written before
the heat death of the universe? You cannot attempt to finesse
this quest by invoking "self-learning" because then you need a
training set that is at least as extensive as the 75 year
training set that the mechanism you would have me be, has
utilized to become me. <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I might agree that, in principle,<b><i><u>
"A bot that acts indistinguishably from how you act *is*
you," </u></i></b>I think the implication of the word
"indistinguishably" is a bar that will never be attained.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"> davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">On Tue, May 16, 2023, at 6:46 PM,
glen wrote:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> That's a great point. To be
honest, anyone who is accurately mimicked by <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> a bot should be just fine
with that mimicry, leveraging the word <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> "accurate", of course. I
mean, isn't that a sci-fi plot? Your bot <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> responds to things so that
you don't have to.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> A friend of mine recently
objected that "algorithms" are "reductive". I <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> tried to argue that
algorithms (in the modern sense of The Algorithm) <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> can be either reductive or
expansive (e.g. combinatorial explosion). But <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> she was having none of it. I
think her position boiled down to the idea <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> that humans are complex,
multi-faceted, deep creatures. And taking 1 or <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> few measurements and then
claiming that represents them in some space <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> reduces the whole human to a
low-dim vector.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> So, for her, I can imagine
even if she were cloned and her clone acted <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> exactly like her, she would
never accept that clone's behavior, words, <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> or even existence as actually
*being* her. There's some sense of agency <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> or an inner world, or
whatever, that accuracy becomes moot. It's the <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> qualia that matter, the
subjective sense of free will ... metaphysical <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> nonsense.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> A bot that acts
indistinguishably from how you act *is* you. I guess I'm <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> dangerously close to claiming
that GPT-4 and Bard actually are <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> sentient/conscious. *8^O<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> On 5/16/23 11:50, Marcus
Daniels wrote:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> I don’t really get it.
Trump can go on a TV town hall and lie, and <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> those folks just lap it
up. Sue a company for learning some fancy <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> patterns? Really? If
someone made a generative model of, say, Glen’s <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> visual appearance and
vocal mannerisms and gave him a shtick that didn’t <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> match up with his past
remarks, I think I’d notice it right away. If <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> a GPT-X could fake Eric
Smith, I can safely take the blue pill. Some <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> of our transactions will
probably require more cryptographic signing. <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Fine, they probably
should have already.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> *From:* Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
*On Behalf Of *Steve Smith<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16,
2023 11:33 AM<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> *To:* <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM]
Bard and Don Quixote<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Jochen -<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Very interesting
framing... as a followup I took the converse <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> (inverse?) question To
GPT4..<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> /If we consider an
LLM (Large Language Model) as the Sancho Panza to<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> the Don Quixote of
its human users, we can explore a couple of<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> potential aspects:/<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> 1. /Grounding and
Practicality: Sancho Panza is known for his<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> grounded
perspective and practicality, which complements Don<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Quixote's
idealism. Similarly, an LLM can provide factual<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> information,
context, and practical insights to guide and<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> support human
users in their interactions. It can offer a wealth<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> of knowledge and
help bridge gaps in understanding, serving as a<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> pragmatic
companion./<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> 2. /Balancing
Imagination and Realism: Don Quixote embodies<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> imagination and
creative thinking, while Sancho Panza offers a<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> more realistic
viewpoint. Similarly, an LLM can enhance human<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> creativity by
generating imaginative ideas and expanding<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> possibilities. At
the same time, it can bring rationality and<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> critical
thinking, ensuring that the generated content aligns<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> with facts and
reason./<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> 3. /Providing
Different Perspectives: Sancho Panza often offers<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> alternative
viewpoints and challenges Don Quixote's romanticized<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> notions.
Similarly, an LLM can present diverse perspectives,<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> consider
different angles, and engage in nuanced discussions<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> with human users.
It can help users explore varying opinions and<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> broaden their
understanding of complex topics./<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> 4. /Ethical
Guidance: Sancho Panza acts as a moral compass,<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> advising Don
Quixote on the right course of action. In a similar<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> vein, an LLM can
provide ethical guidance by highlighting<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> potential biases,
promoting inclusivity, and encouraging<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> responsible use
of language and information. It can contribute<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> to creating a
more informed and ethical digital environment./<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> /However, it's
important to note that an LLM, as a machine learning<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> model, lacks human
experiences, emotions, and deeper understanding.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> While it can offer
valuable assistance, it may not fully grasp the<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> complexities of human
interactions or possess the wisdom and<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> empathetic qualities
of a human companion like Sancho Panza.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Therefore, while an
LLM can serve as a useful tool, it should be<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> complemented by human
judgment and critical thinking to navigate the<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> nuances of real-life
situations./<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> I am a couple of hours
behind on the live feed Senate hearing on AI <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <<a
href="https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/committee-activity/hearings/oversight-of-ai-rules-for-artificial-intelligence"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/committee-activity/hearings/oversight-of-ai-rules-for-artificial-intelligence</a>>
listening in fits and starts between other things:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> 1. I was definitely
impressed with Altman (OpenAI), Montgomery (IBM)<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> and Marcus' (NYU)
thoughtful and extrapolative responses rather than<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> perhaps the more
usual defensive/deflective/adversarial style that<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> these hearings often
have... I don't know who chose this<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> particular lineup but
I thought both Montgomery and Marcus made a<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> good complement to
Altman. If Google and Microsoft and ??? had been<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> there it might have
reflected more "competitive" or "showy" answers?<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> 2. I was impressed with
the Senators (compared to my fairly low<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> expectations). Even
Kennedy and Hawley managed not to do their<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> usual grandstanding
and and snide sniping. Altman handed Hawley's<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> question "why don't
we just let people sue you?" (as a mode of<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> regulation/oversight)
back to him quite deftly (in the style of "ass<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> with both hands") by
responding simply "I know of no reason people<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> CAN'T sue us today if
we cause harm". Marcus chipped in pretty well<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> outlining how the
current laws that *might* apply are not well<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> suited for many
reasons.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> 3. I felt that all three
witnesses walked the fine line on the question<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> of a "moratoriam"
fairly deftly, acknowledging that they endorse the<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> spirit of not running
headlong and thoughtlessly into the future but<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> at the same time
there is no obvious practical way to implement and<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> enforce this, but
that they are all enforcing their own limits on<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> how fast (and
thoughtlessly?) they might roll out development to the<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> public...<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> 4. In closing
Blumenthal suggested having ChatGPT rewrite the lyrics<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> to "Don't Stop"
(thinking about tomorrow (McVie-Fleetwood Mac) which<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> I took to heart. I
was not impressed with it's results and won't<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> burden the list with
it. I'm guessing Blumenthal did *not* actually<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> do that but like
Quixote, simply saw the windmill and thought it<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> might be a giant?<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> On 5/16/23 11:30 AM,
Jochen Fromm wrote:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> I have asked Bard (
bard.google.com) today about Don Quixote from<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Cervantes, and if a
large language model would be similar to a Don<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Quixote without a
Sancho Panza.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Here is what Bard
replied:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> "In a way, large
language models can be seen as Don Quixotes without<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Sancho Panzas. They
are trained on massive amounts of text data, and<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> they are able to
generate text, translate languages, write different<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> kinds of creative
content, and answer your questions in an<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> informative way.
However, they are not always able to distinguish<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> between reality and
fiction, and they can sometimes make mistakes or<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> generate text that is
not accurate or helpful.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Sancho Panza, on the
other hand, is a realist who helps Don Quixote<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> to stay grounded in
reality. He provides Don Quixote with common<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> sense and practical
advice, and he helps him to avoid making mistakes.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Large language models
could benefit from having a Sancho Panza<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> figure to help them
to stay grounded in reality and to avoid making<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> mistakes. This could
be done by having a human being or another<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> large language model
to review the text that the large language<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> model generates. This
would help to ensure that the text is<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> accurate, helpful,
and appropriate"<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> -J.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">><br>
</div>
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</div>
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