<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">This comment leads to an interesting angle that I haven’t heard.<div>Bill Rees, whom you can find here:</div><div><div style="display: block;"><div style="-webkit-user-select: all; -webkit-user-drag: element; display: inline-block;" class="apple-rich-link" draggable="true" role="link" data-url="https://www.realgnd.org/"><a style="border-radius:10px;font-family:-apple-system, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;display:block;-webkit-user-select:none;width:300px;user-select:none;-webkit-user-modify:read-only;user-modify:read-only;overflow:hidden;text-decoration:none;" class="lp-rich-link" rel="nofollow" href="https://www.realgnd.org/" dir="ltr" role="button" draggable="false" width="300"><table style="table-layout:fixed;border-collapse:collapse;width:300px;background-color:#E5E6E9;font-family:-apple-system, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class="lp-rich-link-emailBaseTable" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="300"><tbody><tr><td vertical-align="center" align="center"><img style="width:300px;filter:brightness(0.97);height:209px;" width="300" height="209" draggable="false" class="lp-rich-link-mediaImage" alt="d8f080_78c1ab7b00b045ff9bbc01a273b00173~mv2.jpg" src="cid:DFAE2C3F-6A2B-48F8-9111-00D8238233D5"></td></tr><tr><td vertical-align="center"><table bgcolor="#E5E6E9" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="300" style="font-family:-apple-system, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;table-layout:fixed;background-color:rgba(229, 230, 233, 1);" class="lp-rich-link-captionBar"><tbody><tr><td style="padding:8px 0px 8px 0px;" class="lp-rich-link-captionBar-textStackItem"><div style="max-width:100%;margin:0px 16px 0px 16px;overflow:hidden;" class="lp-rich-link-captionBar-textStack"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;font-weight:500;font-size:12px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left;" class="lp-rich-link-captionBar-textStack-topCaption-leading"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.realgnd.org/" style="text-decoration: none" draggable="false"><font color="#272727" style="color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847059);">Home | The REAL Green New Deal Project</font></a></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word;font-weight:400;font-size:11px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left;" class="lp-rich-link-captionBar-textStack-bottomCaption-leading"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.realgnd.org/" style="text-decoration: none" draggable="false"><font color="#808080" style="color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.498039);">realgnd.org</font></a></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></a></div></div>writes numerous papers about how 90% of us need to die, or that this is just what will happen whether we articulate such a need or not. I won’t go so far as to say that Rees “wants” 90% of us to die (see the smiling grandfatherly bearded ecologist photo in the pages), but after a long life of writing Jeremiads and not seeing the world change its ways, he seems so defeated by frustration that I read in him a deep and now constitutive misanthropy.</div><div><br></div><div>(btw: the Real GND website is best read while listening to Sabine Hossenfelder’s song My Name is Cassandra, Prophet of the Dark. Thanks Marcus for making me aware of her oeuvre, I had never noticed it.)</div><div><br></div><div>Usually, the problem with the bait-and-switch of new technologies is “look, it will save so much labor we will all have leisure to be creative while still having comfortable levels of consumption”, when what actually happens is classic Marx: the few who can enclose the new services, either because they are exclusive or just through market-gravitational effects, now own an even larger sector of all income, and the expanding remnant is made increasingly desperate.</div><div><br></div><div>But here, we can maybe somehow combine the capitalists and the GNDers. The concentration in the rate and provision of services, and of the ownership of the proceeds by whoever the rulers turn out to be, leaves the rest of us free to die off in peace, and not carry on the guilt of being ecological criminals. It’s a win-win.</div><div><br></div><div>I worry that that story is probably incomplete, and maybe thereby wrong. The concentrating advantage of advanced autocomplete services might only be a transient while our current stock of primary knowledge is “enough” and “not fully mined”. Maybe all the inefficient activity of ordinary people is somehow a diffuse source that actually expands the primary base. Certainly my impression of ecological organizations is that, below any small population of charismatic megafauna, there is a whole pyramid that goes down to an astonishing number of nitrogen-fixer bacteria. </div><div><br></div><div>But I don’t know, what organizations are necessary by physical, mathematical, and biological laws, and which might be possible that we just haven’t ever seen before.</div><div><br></div><div>Eric</div><div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On May 28, 2023, at 7:27 AM, Marcus Daniels <marcus@snoutfarm.com> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset="UTF-8"><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Looking at the recent rapid release of open source LLM systems like Falcon and Mosaic ML, Llama, etc. there is more going-on than titans like Microsoft, and Google battling it out with giant closed systems. These are human know-how crystalized into open-source deliverables. Why not share knowledge representations in this way? Consider the cost and time that goes into medical or legal training. Sure the energy requirements of digital systems are high, but so are the energy expenditures of a planet full of humans.</div><div id="appendonsend" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"></div><hr tabindex="-1" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; display: inline-block; width: 760.46875px;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;"></span><div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 26, 2023 2:06 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege</font><div> </div></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="auto">My grandsons' girlfriends (twenty-somethings) say that they think babies are disgusting. I hope they change their minds. In any case, what does a shortage of babies have to do with AI?</div></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Babies *are* (can be) disgusting, but same for puppies, kitties, and garden-soil from the right (wrong) perspective!<br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Maybe the point is "nobody left for the AI overlords to lord over" ?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">I think the key is "existential threat"... I didn't look for Schmidt's statement anywhere, so I'm just speculating that maybe he's doing a mild echo of Musk's idea that a collapsing (first) world population is somehow a *bigger* existential threat? <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">With my techhead hat on I am inclined to imagine that AI will help me (well, not ME anymore, but people vaguely like who I once thought I was or wanted to be) solve micro-techonomic problems like the ones that lead to Teflon(tm) and Velcro(tm) and higher density/faster-charge EV batteries, and higher density/dynamic range pixel-displays, and neural lace to wire (grow?) into my brain/ganglia, and microbes that can convert moon/mars-dust to Soylent/Huel/Water/??? etc. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">My PsychoHistory hatted self (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional)">Asimov - Foundation</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory#:~:text=Psychohistory%20is%20an%20amalgam%20of,stated%20intention%20and%20actual%20behavior.">non-fictional variant</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>) is inclined to imagine that AI *can* help with the "big problems", the ones nominally too large, too interdisciplinarian, too obtuse, too "wycked" (In Complexity Science jargon), possibly too counter-intuitive for most (any?) human or group of humans to grasp.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">My Ned Ludd (very tight by definition?) hat has me thinking more down the rabbit holes of worst-case scenarios where all the arrogant, narcissistic @$$h0ii3z of the world (starting at the top with those whose names start with Pu Tr Be Zu Mu(r/s) Ne De ... and staggering down the hierarchy of potency and scope to most of us here most of the time) think they "know what is best" and put their resources to using the AI lever to "make it so"... <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Even (especially) me, I constantly imagine that "if they made ME King" (or to the point, if *I* was the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>wormtongue</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in the AI Overlord's ear) that I would "make the world safe and happy for everyone, ever after with no unintended consequences or unpleasant side effects". <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">One *might* guess that the smartest thinkers in the most grounded, thoughtful, gentle think-tanks (e.g. in a Tibetan Lamasary or the "Club of Rome" or SIPRI or CESR or the Justice League of America or the people who task "jewish space lasers" or ??? ) would be practicing their AI-whispering skills right now. Maybe tasking Marcus' Quantum Computer with "the hard problem of universal consciousness"?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> An up-to-date version of Asimov's<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God">9 Billion Names of God</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>?<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div></div><br><div class="x_gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Thu, May 25, 2023, 12:48 PM Roger Critchlow <<a href="mailto:rec@elf.org" class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext">rec@elf.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir="ltr">Google news decided to surface an article from Fortune today. It's headlined "Society's refusal to have enough babies is what will save it from the existential threat of A. I., Eric Schmidt says". The headline is accompanied by a very serious head shot of Eric. Nice try, Google, but you're not sucking me down that rabbit hole.<div><br></div><div>Meanwhile, someone apparently read my mind about the rationality of disaster prepping and wrote an epic novel about it 40 years ago in Catalan. The Garden of the Seven Twilights by Miquel de Palol is available in English translation and as an ebook on<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2foverdrive.com&c=E,1,qiLuQHPdYM-73PUnxLjrSTzI76V8rfL6yb0_zHcdufFpFa1_kCTZkOyfYIh_N_0ysaWtjxXmwlL7kj8mmwGK2wfSP_01M-8QKT_yUEwBhHUL1Wuk-x_ACQBsspQ,&typo=1" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">overdrive.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at your local library. The narrator crosses refugee swamped Barcelona to check on his mom and gets sent off by her to a McMansion'ed medieval monastery high in the Pyrenees where the elite are amusing themselves with stories while awaiting the resolution of the first war of entertainment. Lots of stories about themselves and their friends and acquaintances.</div><div><br></div><div>-- rec --</div></div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,lvStkRfb4ni2lVnAGiuWdInCnMjYT7o_OsddMjmeHf9YeDYQyTXo6Uxy1Zu2AECrcpUalRZWjMlZ2N33kOOw1Su4aBow5wP0hnU13jaAtZPiK7yRiEve&typo=1" rel="noreferrer
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</pre></blockquote></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; 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font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,07vXTqUIMReE2KtteRWzYuROxDmnRYCUFPSeaSWWInYKgVH6qvY9BIUWT5dKtrIgzkY32CiS0nN2ViZFO8ox9gAtZ3Sjb2RvfF7rjq-5-A,,&typo=1</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">to (un)subscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,UuelCT1PELwwK1pYKdHjle-DePLaHbslu_2DvLz4dsZOs4U9TivXg1419qWAQr50UjFatdK8zxDkMmvFf--pPry6Lje08q-WU3B25Pis6YCa4knF4chdLg,,&typo=1" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,UuelCT1PELwwK1pYKdHjle-DePLaHbslu_2DvLz4dsZOs4U9TivXg1419qWAQr50UjFatdK8zxDkMmvFf--pPry6Lje08q-WU3B25Pis6YCa4knF4chdLg,,&typo=1</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,CvpRt-fEIZPrWr8MZmcFF2-GBThqrjqEwXq0llLSlYF4d9nFpIyb90cr-v99MyiBrFHqvRbv0DerxP5htMMEbscfwy8aw5TMAMLA05lkFELisg,,&typo=1" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,CvpRt-fEIZPrWr8MZmcFF2-GBThqrjqEwXq0llLSlYF4d9nFpIyb90cr-v99MyiBrFHqvRbv0DerxP5htMMEbscfwy8aw5TMAMLA05lkFELisg,,&typo=1</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">archives: 5/2017 thru present<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,ueUikWBXv0NGpErttvpROyzap8nxPEzo9iX5NdITCO05GobBIFASo17e8HAS9c148cyJgTPJUxyLaCVgW7ocLs-drFTSF3haoyPEDQGtPr1-2ORsZjEO&typo=1" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,ueUikWBXv0NGpErttvpROyzap8nxPEzo9iX5NdITCO05GobBIFASo17e8HAS9c148cyJgTPJUxyLaCVgW7ocLs-drFTSF3haoyPEDQGtPr1-2ORsZjEO&typo=1</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 </span><a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>