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<p>Eric -</p>
<p>Thanks for passing this link around here. I suspect most here
have the background to appreciate/parse this < insert Steve
Martin's "hear me now and believe me later" SNL skit> but maybe
not an "affordance to know" the more acute implications of it.<br>
</p>
<p>One of the things I find (most) interesting in the RGND rhetoric
is their (appropriate) invocation of Complex Systems ideas as well
as the convergence of human consciousness (mostly from a
neuroscience perspective) and the complex systems which are the
techno-social-economic systems that are our energo-materio culture
which is the engine that is spinning the earth-systems out of the
orbits they were in pre-anthropocene (150 or 15000 years?)</p>
<p>I may be reading them wrong, but this feels like "yet another"
elitist trope, this time on (nanotech?) steroids:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><font size="2"><i><span style="color: rgb(70, 70, 70);
font-size: 18px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: justify; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;">In short, we think it’s probable
that MTI civilization will collapse catastrophically but
that pockets of people with a rising level of
consciousness and awareness of our eco-predicament will
survive and act as the seeders of a new world.</span></i><i>
</i></font><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I particularly appreciated your pithy observation:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>But here, we can maybe somehow combine the capitalists and
the GNDers. The concentration in the rate and provision of
services, and of the ownership of the proceeds by whoever the
rulers turn out to be, leaves the rest of us free to die off
in peace, and not carry on the guilt of being ecological
criminals. It’s a win-win.</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p><i><br>
</i></p>
<p>Thanks to Sabine (as Cassandra) and Eric and Marcus for raising
this to my attention... queing it up to provide background for my
read lead me to her <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng">Collective
Stupidity episode</a>. <br>
</p>
<p>I am left wondering if/how LLMs reflect/relate to
Wisdom/Stupidity of Crowds? Seems like LLMs are literally the
encapsulation of collective knowledge.</p>
<p>Sabine's invocation of "Information Cascades" was interesting in
contrast with entrainment and canalization. Will LLMs in some
way help us avoid these short-circuits/shunts? Or aggravate them?</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/28/23 2:46 AM, David Eric Smith
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:10B1A507-F596-4E74-9F07-799620E69C71@santafe.edu">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
This comment leads to an interesting angle that I haven’t heard.
<div>Bill Rees, whom you can find here:</div>
<div>
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The REAL Green New Deal Project</font></a></div>
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writes numerous papers about how 90% of us need to die, or that
this is just what will happen whether we articulate such a need
or not. I won’t go so far as to say that Rees “wants” 90% of us
to die (see the smiling grandfatherly bearded ecologist photo in
the pages), but after a long life of writing Jeremiads and not
seeing the world change its ways, he seems so defeated by
frustration that I read in him a deep and now constitutive
misanthropy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(btw: the Real GND website is best read while listening to
Sabine Hossenfelder’s song My Name is Cassandra, Prophet of the
Dark. Thanks Marcus for making me aware of her oeuvre, I had
never noticed it.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Usually, the problem with the bait-and-switch of new
technologies is “look, it will save so much labor we will all
have leisure to be creative while still having comfortable
levels of consumption”, when what actually happens is classic
Marx: the few who can enclose the new services, either because
they are exclusive or just through market-gravitational effects,
now own an even larger sector of all income, and the expanding
remnant is made increasingly desperate.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But here, we can maybe somehow combine the capitalists and
the GNDers. The concentration in the rate and provision of
services, and of the ownership of the proceeds by whoever the
rulers turn out to be, leaves the rest of us free to die off in
peace, and not carry on the guilt of being ecological criminals.
It’s a win-win.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I worry that that story is probably incomplete, and maybe
thereby wrong. The concentrating advantage of advanced
autocomplete services might only be a transient while our
current stock of primary knowledge is “enough” and “not fully
mined”. Maybe all the inefficient activity of ordinary people
is somehow a diffuse source that actually expands the primary
base. Certainly my impression of ecological organizations is
that, below any small population of charismatic megafauna, there
is a whole pyramid that goes down to an astonishing number of
nitrogen-fixer bacteria. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But I don’t know, what organizations are necessary by
physical, mathematical, and biological laws, and which might be
possible that we just haven’t ever seen before.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Eric</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On May 28, 2023, at 7:27 AM, Marcus Daniels
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"><marcus@snoutfarm.com></a> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<meta charset="UTF-8">
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Looking at the
recent rapid release of open source LLM systems like
Falcon and Mosaic ML, Llama, etc. there is more going-on
than titans like Microsoft, and Google battling it out
with giant closed systems. These are human know-how
crystalized into open-source deliverables. Why not
share knowledge representations in this way? Consider
the cost and time that goes into medical or legal
training. Sure the energy requirements of digital
systems are high, but so are the energy expenditures of
a planet full of humans.</div>
<hr tabindex="-1" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; display: inline-block; width:
760.46875px;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;"></span>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" style="caret-color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><font
style="font-size: 11pt;" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
on behalf of Steve Smith <<a
href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday,
May 26, 2023 2:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[FRIAM] crackpots and privilege</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">My grandsons' girlfriends
(twenty-somethings) say that they think babies are
disgusting. I hope they change their minds. In any
case, what does a shortage of babies have to do with
AI?</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Babies
*are* (can be) disgusting, but same for puppies,
kitties, and garden-soil from the right (wrong)
perspective!<br>
</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Maybe
the point is "nobody left for the AI overlords to lord
over" ?</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">I
think the key is "existential threat"... I didn't
look for Schmidt's statement anywhere, so I'm just
speculating that maybe he's doing a mild echo of
Musk's idea that a collapsing (first) world population
is somehow a *bigger* existential threat? <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">With
my techhead hat on I am inclined to imagine that AI
will help me (well, not ME anymore, but people vaguely
like who I once thought I was or wanted to be) solve
micro-techonomic problems like the ones that lead to
Teflon(tm) and Velcro(tm) and higher
density/faster-charge EV batteries, and higher
density/dynamic range pixel-displays, and neural lace
to wire (grow?) into my brain/ganglia, and microbes
that can convert moon/mars-dust to
Soylent/Huel/Water/??? etc. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">My
PsychoHistory hatted self (<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional)"
moz-do-not-send="true">Asimov - Foundation</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and the<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory#:~:text=Psychohistory%20is%20an%20amalgam%20of,stated%20intention%20and%20actual%20behavior."
moz-do-not-send="true">non-fictional variant</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>) is inclined
to imagine that AI *can* help with the "big problems",
the ones nominally too large, too interdisciplinarian,
too obtuse, too "wycked" (In Complexity Science
jargon), possibly too counter-intuitive for most
(any?) human or group of humans to grasp.</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">My Ned
Ludd (very tight by definition?) hat has me thinking
more down the rabbit holes of worst-case scenarios
where all the arrogant, narcissistic @$$h0ii3z of the
world (starting at the top with those whose names
start with Pu Tr Be Zu Mu(r/s) Ne De ... and
staggering down the hierarchy of potency and scope to
most of us here most of the time) think they "know
what is best" and put their resources to using the AI
lever to "make it so"... <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Even
(especially) me, I constantly imagine that "if they
made ME King" (or to the point, if *I* was the<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>wormtongue</i><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in the AI
Overlord's ear) that I would "make the world safe and
happy for everyone, ever after with no unintended
consequences or unpleasant side effects". <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">One
*might* guess that the smartest thinkers in the most
grounded, thoughtful, gentle think-tanks (e.g. in a
Tibetan Lamasary or the "Club of Rome" or SIPRI or
CESR or the Justice League of America or the people
who task "jewish space lasers" or ??? ) would be
practicing their AI-whispering skills right now.
Maybe tasking Marcus' Quantum Computer with "the hard
problem of universal consciousness"?<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> An
up-to-date version of Asimov's<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God"
moz-do-not-send="true">9 Billion Names of God</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>?<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Thu, May 25,
2023, 12:48 PM Roger Critchlow <<a
href="mailto:rec@elf.org"
class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext
moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">rec@elf.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">Google news decided to surface an
article from Fortune today. It's headlined
"Society's refusal to have enough babies is what
will save it from the existential threat of A.
I., Eric Schmidt says". The headline is
accompanied by a very serious head shot of
Eric. Nice try, Google, but you're not sucking
me down that rabbit hole.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Meanwhile, someone apparently read my mind
about the rationality of disaster prepping and
wrote an epic novel about it 40 years ago in
Catalan. The Garden of the Seven Twilights by
Miquel de Palol is available in English
translation and as an ebook on<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2foverdrive.com&c=E,1,qiLuQHPdYM-73PUnxLjrSTzI76V8rfL6yb0_zHcdufFpFa1_kCTZkOyfYIh_N_0ysaWtjxXmwlL7kj8mmwGK2wfSP_01M-8QKT_yUEwBhHUL1Wuk-x_ACQBsspQ,&typo=1"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">overdrive.com</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at
your local library. The narrator crosses
refugee swamped Barcelona to check on his mom
and gets sent off by her to a McMansion'ed
medieval monastery high in the Pyrenees where
the elite are amusing themselves with stories
while awaiting the resolution of the first war
of entertainment. Lots of stories about
themselves and their friends and
acquaintances.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- rec --</div>
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FRIAM-COMIC <a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,9pr3pT9TWsfMWF9WYgWv_00FeP0Qf98b2FrPIwniSrmaMbs8mzCWa8bw-jJHbNGj6baxwxZowwgOHGPtuLOoFKcV9jMoh-A16s_HaEUVicqxcn04GCJcfA,,&typo=1" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,HpcwnrlbHcM1kHDvdmittJUtf_p3jvU7k40tpDNiIHChwLmR4D1l-2BLG54Q5adzzRmvL_iQxaWElqKF_05j5bC4susWDN8krx3ANOdfRYjb8R501dZD&typo=1" moz-do-not-send="true">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;">Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe /
Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,07vXTqUIMReE2KtteRWzYuROxDmnRYCUFPSeaSWWInYKgVH6qvY9BIUWT5dKtrIgzkY32CiS0nN2ViZFO8ox9gAtZ3Sjb2RvfF7rjq-5-A,,&typo=1"
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font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,UuelCT1PELwwK1pYKdHjle-DePLaHbslu_2DvLz4dsZOs4U9TivXg1419qWAQr50UjFatdK8zxDkMmvFf--pPry6Lje08q-WU3B25Pis6YCa4knF4chdLg,,&typo=1</a><br
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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!important;">FRIAM-COMIC<span
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href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,CvpRt-fEIZPrWr8MZmcFF2-GBThqrjqEwXq0llLSlYF4d9nFpIyb90cr-v99MyiBrFHqvRbv0DerxP5htMMEbscfwy8aw5TMAMLA05lkFELisg,,&typo=1"
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text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,CvpRt-fEIZPrWr8MZmcFF2-GBThqrjqEwXq0llLSlYF4d9nFpIyb90cr-v99MyiBrFHqvRbv0DerxP5htMMEbscfwy8aw5TMAMLA05lkFELisg,,&typo=1</a><br
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;">archives: 5/2017 thru present<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,ueUikWBXv0NGpErttvpROyzap8nxPEzo9iX5NdITCO05GobBIFASo17e8HAS9c148cyJgTPJUxyLaCVgW7ocLs-drFTSF3haoyPEDQGtPr1-2ORsZjEO&typo=1"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,ueUikWBXv0NGpErttvpROyzap8nxPEzo9iX5NdITCO05GobBIFASo17e8HAS9c148cyJgTPJUxyLaCVgW7ocLs-drFTSF3haoyPEDQGtPr1-2ORsZjEO&typo=1</a><br
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 </span><a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
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text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
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0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></div>
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<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
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