<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BYAPR11MB3830D55A3E4774D51E2BBB98C54DA@BYAPR11MB3830.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]-->
<style>@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;}p.xmsonormal, li.xmsonormal, div.xmsonormal
{mso-style-name:x_msonormal;
margin:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;
mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}</style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">What expertise I have is often manifest by
a gut instinct that something is a bad idea. I’m curious
what daydreaming or brainstorming is like with gut feelings
informed by all the things GPT systems have seen. To me
that sounds much more efficient than trying to communicate
with Siri or fumbling with a keyboard (even though I’m a
fairly fast typist). That’s a high latency connection that
requires coding and decoding language. What is dreaming like
with an integrated GPT-like database?<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>unfortunately you are singing my song here... or dreaming my
dreams. This too compels me (or at least my ego?)... <br>
</p>
<p>For many years, I have felt that my own voracious appetite for
the written, crafted, and produced creative constructions of
others (aka literature, art, pop fiction, pop media, etc) has been
"dreaming other people's dreams" and the nature of wireless
streaming video into the 50" diagonal box in my living room, the
5" diagonal mobile phone in my hand, and the 360 degree
stereographic sensorium of my Oculus has jacked it up to a new
level... <br>
</p>
<p>Our brains were (maybe) wired/evolved to stare into a flickering
fire (or at the shadows thrown on the cave wall) and tell one
another stories handed down and around, embellished, superposed,
morphed, hyperbolized, personalized over a lifetime. Surely
Kokopelli's greatest gift to each village he entered was the gift
of new ideas hidden in familiar but not stories? That and (if the
more salacious stories hold) the gift of an outsider's genetic
material into the community. The hard-goods or even seeds he
might have carried in his Santa-esque backpack are qualitatively
the same?<br>
</p>
<p>I am not *nearly* thoughtful enough about the schlock I
consume... ranging from doomscrolling GoogleNews and YouTube to
several high-production-quality Hollywood movies (blockbuster or
not) a similar number of Indie flicks (often as high of quality
surprisingly) and one or more ongoing Streaming Series. In
between all that passive "lean back" consumption (coupling?) I
read a *lot* of long-form journalism and roughly as much
Educated-Lay level professional sci/tech papers which impinge on
my professional (and now more broadly personal) interests.</p>
<p>Following Piaget's theory of structural learning, I expect this
either confronts my brain with regular "refactorings" or requires
a lot of deprecation/pruning of things I "thought I knew". I
suspect if I were to go back and review the FriAM archives and my
own (or anyone else's) text here I could find inflection points in
the underlying "models" I was operating on at the time. With
enough time, the new models/patterns seem to be resolvable with
the old ones in some kind of "meta-pattern* which can itself be a
pattern worthy of abstracting/refactoring?</p>
<p> Referencing Glen's references to "diachronic" vs "episodic" I am
left with the feeling that these are "naturally" composed episodes
with internal diachronicity but (for some more than others) also
strung together diachronically to some extent? <br>
</p>
<p>Given that it is our "gut instincts", what if our AI were to
engineer our gut biome to carry all that extra information and
every meal is like a system update?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BYAPR11MB3830D55A3E4774D51E2BBB98C54DA@BYAPR11MB3830.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 5, 2023 8:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Radical Empiricism<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Marcus -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Even though I play the Luddite most of the time, I am in fact
fascinated with the possibilities of post/transhumanism, at
least in the sense that it feels "inevitable". With the
implied magnitude of qualitative change in Homo this-n-that to
<i>Homo postHomo </i>or maybe <i>Homo Cyborgis</i> or quite
possibly Homo goneBabygoneNevertobeSeenAgain along with all
mammalian/warm-blooded/vertebrate life, depending on our
overshoot, it seems worth a second thought or two as to what
we *might* have some control over.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>We are about to enter a chaotic maelstrom of change, and
while that can seem hopeless, I do believe that extreme sports
enthusiasts are very precise about the line they enter their
maelstroms from/on. (Surfing, skiing,
Niagra-Falls-Barrel-Diving... etc)
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Regarding the augmentation of LLMs... we were all born in a
time of huge augmentation in the form of libraries and books
and most saliently perhaps reference books for our language
(dictionary, encyclopedia, etc) and reference books to our
myriad specialties (Technical Libraries). *IN* my lifetime I
have participated in the digitization of most if not all of
that matter as well as adapting the professional and plebian
workplaces to those changes, whilst adapting our personal
lives (e.g. handheld device connected to the "global brain"
24/7) to those changes. We can all probably conjure a 1000
utopian/dystopian vignettes supporting/undermining any
determination of whether this is "for the good" or not. I'm
almost completely habituated to this "modern era" but old
enough to still have intellectual inertia making paper maps,
newspapers, magazines, etc. at least *quaint* items if I
almost always defer to the other. I recently gifted my 1903
Blackies Encyclopedia set to a HS History teacher to use in
his classes to give his students a snapshot of time *in the
original text and atoms* for whatever that is worth.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>I'm not likely to be an early adopter of neural interfaces
(unless I face an acute disability in that area) but I am
already a fairly regular GPT4-whisperer. I can't say it has
improved any of the practical aspects of my life (yet), but it
has been an interesting correspondent in the way I usually
burden *this group* with my maundering speculations. GPT4 is
infinitely patient, broadly and deeply informed, and only
occasionally fails to provide me with some interesting
feedback.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>I recently funded a Kickstarter for a powered exoskeleton
(Lower extremety only) which may return to me a little more
mobility than megadosing NSAIDS and velcro-strapped
stabilization belts for my hips... I don't know that this
will be anything more than a novelty or if it will be as
(relatively) good as the Oculus (I've been playing with VR
since before it was called that and was totally blown away by
the "value" Oculus represents).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><ramble off><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>- Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">I don't mean "we"
as in FRIAM, I mean "we" as in nations. A benefit of
capturing knowledge with LLMs, or similar technology, is
that people wouldn't need to be educated about the same
material over and over, especially if these systems are
integrated into our neural systems. Why not have
individuals inherit a common database so that their
lives can be spent on differentiated activities?
There's so little that tie together individuals besides
their fears and superstitions. When I see chatGPT emit
passable conversations like this, it seems kind of
absurd to waste years of a young person's time covering
the same old ground. (Actually, it already seems that
way to me.) Countries like Israel and Greece have
mandatory military service. Some believe this instills
in them values greater than themselves. In this case of
the Borg, care of the collective is care of the self and
vice versa. The common practice in the open source LLM
community of fine tuning pre-trained LLMs is so much
more efficient than what humans do to educate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center">
<hr width="98%" size="1" align="center">
</div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="color:black"> Friam
</span><a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a><span
style="color:black"> on behalf of Jochen Fromm
</span><a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><jofr@cas-group.net></a><span
style="color:black"><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 4, 2023 3:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group </span><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a><span
style="color:black"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Radical Empiricism</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Discussions with large language
models are new. But you are right, we had discussions of
similar topics before. Maybe I was hoping I could
inspire Nick and/or Eric to write a summary of their
ideas and what we have discussed before ( such as the
solution to the hard problem of consciousness, the
nature of subjective experience and what it has to do
with path dependence, complexity science and James'
radical empiricism ).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-J.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">--------
Original message --------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">From:
Marcus Daniels </span><a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><marcus@snoutfarm.com></a><span
style="color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Date:
6/4/23 9:54 PM (GMT+01:00) <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">To: The
Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
</span><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a><span
style="color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Subject:
Re: [FRIAM] Radical Empiricism
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal">The conclusion I draw is that these
conversations have all occurred before. So I wonder,
why have them?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="xmsonormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Jochen Fromm<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 4, 2023 10:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] Radical Empiricism<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="xmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal">ChatGPT now allows sharing
conversations. I've asked it about William James book
"Essays in Radical Empiricism"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal"><a
href="https://chat.openai.com/share/375aef4e-a8d6-467e-8061-bd85b341c46b"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://chat.openai.com/share/375aef4e-a8d6-467e-8061-bd85b341c46b</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal">-J.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>