<div dir="auto"><div>I'm not sure how this fits with what you wrote, Eric but it may be interesting regardless.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">In the late 1990s Clark Glymour and I wrote a paper on using causal inference algorithms to discover the structure of genetic regulatory networks based on microarray data. We tested a number of methods on a variety of datasets. We had asked Professor X for a dataset that he used to confirm that his algorithm was effective. He declined to provide it. We reported this in our final paper which we submitted to the Journal of Machine Learning Research. The referees recommended that our paper be rejected because we insulted Professor X. Glymour, who has published on the order of ten books and five hundred papers said to hell with them and we published the paper in a handbook on on algorithms for computing gene networks. I really wanted a paper in JMLR. Oh well.<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 2:35 PM David Eric Smith <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu">desmith@santafe.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="line-break:after-white-space">The uncanny valley for me in this is its extraordinary astuteness for the use patterns of weasel wording in the kind of hostage-video writing that any scientist who is still alive to work will have done in grant proposals, responses to referee reports and other such things. Given how blithe it is about things like magnitude (c.f. Cris Moore’s example in the SFI public lecture about its proposing prime factors for some large number), it is incredibly sharp about how weasel words are used to try to get credit for something while accepting no responsibility. Various combinations of insinuation, promulgation of bad categories, and other sleights of hand.<div><br></div><div>I can envision a kind of scientific literature that consists only of good-faith writing, in which if you think there is a resemblance or pattern you are allowed to say so and explain what you are cueing off of, and if you can’t cash it out you can try to make clear where you are stuck. But in a world where all decision-making has gone down the drain of trying to get something for nothing, I can’t imagine that scientific literature as a component, uncorrupted by the hefty amount of all this other stuff.</div><div><br></div><div>Eric</div><div><br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Aug 6, 2023, at 5:20 AM, Stephen Guerin <<a href="mailto:stephen.guerin@simtable.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">stephen.guerin@simtable.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="auto">Yeah those students got a C+ for sloppy conclusions with no evidence.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I see your crucifix and raise you with this C- lab report :-)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">**Student Lab Report**</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">**Title:** Natural Selection's Influence on Vortex Formation in Fluid Dynamics</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">**Objective:** This lab aimed to investigate vortex formation in fluid dynamics, exploring how principles akin to natural selection could explain the emergence and persistence of specific vortex structures and behaviors.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">**Method:** The experiment utilized two 2-liter clear plastic bottles, water, a tube connector, and glitter to observe vortex formation.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">**Findings:**</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">1. **Emergence of Dominant Vortex Patterns:** Certain vortex patterns persisted over time while others dissipated. The more stable and efficient patterns became dominant, akin to how natural selection allows favorable traits to prevail.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">2. **Adaptation to System Changes:** When the system's conditions were altered, different vortex patterns emerged, demonstrating adaptability comparable to organisms responding to environmental changes.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">3. **Efficiency as a Selection Criterion:** Vortices that allowed quicker drainage succeeded in the system. This efficiency served as a selection criterion, parallel to how natural selection favors traits that enhance survival or reproduction.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">4. **Real-World Applicability:** The concept was extended to real-world weather systems, where specific patterns may persist due to their stability or efficiency, analogous to the operation of natural selection in biological systems.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">**Conclusion:** This investigation into vortex formation through the lens of natural selection offered a unique perspective on fluid dynamics. By identifying principles common to both natural selection and vortex behavior, we gained insights into why certain structures emerge and persist. This approach has potential implications for understanding various physical phenomena, from small-scale fluid dynamics to large-scale weather systems, and could even offer insights into interdisciplinary areas where physics and biology converge.</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 1:51 PM David Eric Smith <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">desmith@santafe.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="line-break:after-white-space">It’s great that the principle of least action applies only to vortices. Kinda like a crucifix, that wards off whatever crucifixes ward off.<div><br></div><div>Eric</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Aug 6, 2023, at 12:09 AM, Stephen Guerin <<a href="mailto:stephen.guerin@simtable.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">stephen.guerin@simtable.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="auto">There were 10 or so intermediate prompts to drive chatGPT to that lab report.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 8:52 AM Stephen Guerin <<a href="mailto:stephen.guerin@simtable.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">stephen.guerin@simtable.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">chatGPT, you are a graduate student at c the Santa Fe Institute's complex systems summer school, write a lab report on your experiences with the tornado in a tube. <div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">**Student Lab Report**</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">**Title:** Insights into Fluid Dynamics and Symmetry Breaking via 'Tornado in a Tube'</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">**Objective:** This lab aimed to explore the critical principles of fluid dynamics, including the principle of least action, surface tension, broken symmetry, and their impacts on fluid behavior, using the 'tornado in a tube' experiment. We introduced variations in the system's orientation, structural changes, and the application of external forces to further understand these principles.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">**Method:** Our setup included two 2-liter clear plastic bottles, water, a tube connector, and glitter for fluid visualization. We followed the procedure outlined in the lab exercise, with additional testing for different system orientations, external force applications, and structural modifications.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">**Findings:**</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">1. **Role of Surface Tension in Vertical Setup:** With the bottles vertically aligned, surface tension at the bottleneck significantly slowed the drainage process. This resulted in a droplet-like flow and a drainage time of 8 minutes and 12 seconds.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">2. **Influence of External Forces:** By applying an external force to the system—squeezing the top bottle in pulses—we managed to overcome the surface tension resistance. This modified approach expedited the drainage process to a time of 1 minute and 47 seconds.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">3. **Impact of System Orientation:** We then experimented with tilting the bottles to different angles. A tilt of approximately 42 degrees provided the quickest drainage time—2 minutes and 32 seconds. The tilt balanced the inflow of air and the outflow of water, thereby managing the effects of surface tension effectively.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">4. **Vortex Formation, Symmetry Breaking and the Principle of Least Action:** In the next step, we swirled the top bottle to form a vortex, leading to a broken symmetry in angular momentum. This energy-efficient pathway embodied the principle of least action, allowing the water to overcome the surface tension barrier and to drain in an impressive 18 seconds. This broken symmetry enabled the efficient dissipation of the gradient between the bottles.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">5. **Effects of Structural Changes:** Our final test involved an open-ended tube setup. Here, we observed noticeable changes in fluid behavior. The vortex's efficiency in gradient dissipation decreased due to interference from the ambient pressure, indicating the crucial role structural features play in fluid dynamics.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">**Conclusion:** The 'tornado in a tube' experiment, complemented by our additional tests, provided a comprehensive understanding of fluid dynamics principles. The observed differences in drainage times highlighted the significant impact of system orientation, the principle of least action, surface tension, and broken symmetry on fluid dynamics. These findings offer deeper insights into fluid behavior and are applicable to a range of real-world phenomena, from weather systems to biological processes.</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 8:05 PM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Ok, folks. I apologize to those of you who are fed up with
my kitchen physics, but there has been a bit of a development in that saga that
I want to share with those few of you who aren’t.<span> </span>Years ago, I came home for the summer with my
ears ringing with the notion that structures are formed to dissipate gradients.<span> </span>Please set aside any teleological
implications of this statement and ask the question in its most neutral
form:<span> </span>Do the structures that sometimes
form as a gradient is dissipated dissipate it more quickly once the structure has
been formed.<span> </span>Or, as I came to interpret
it, does facilitating the formation of such a structure speed the dissipation of the gradient. <span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I was the family dishwasher at the time.<span> </span>I deplore washing dishes, but I love messing
around with warm soapy water, and so I started to experiment with starting the
vortex that forms <i>after</i> you pull the plug out of the sink <i>before</i>
I pulled the plug.<span> </span>Quickly, it became
apparent that facilitating the vortex formation in that way GREATLY SLOWED the
emptying of the sink.<span> </span>Triumphally, I
wrote Steve on Friam only to be greeted by a torrent of scatological raillery,
so intense and so persistent from the fluid dynamicists on the list that I
never heard from Steve. The burden of this raillery I have distilled into
Roberts Rule of Order:<span> </span><span style="font-family:Algerian">DEFROCKED ENGLISH MAJORS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO
TALK about fluid dynamics</span>.<span> </span><span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">More than a decade later, I am back in Massachusetts,
washing dishes at the same sink, and the question occurred to me again. I
raised it finally with Steve, and he generously sent me the little two-bottle
toy, where you flip it over and the water drains from one bottle to the other. <span> </span>As it drains, it forms a vortex in the
draining bottle, and the occurrence of the vortex greatly <i>increases</i> the
speed of the draining.<span> </span>Finally, if one
facilitates the formation of the vortex by rotating the bottle a bit, the
bottle drains even more quickly.<span> </span>Thus,
the result is entirely different, especially if one substitutes two large pop
bottles for the ones included in the kit.<span>
</span><span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">At the risk of bringing another round of raillery down on my
head, I opine that the difference has something to do with the fact that two
bottle situation is more of a closed system than the sink situation.<span> </span>The test would be to saw the bottom off both
bottles and demonstrate that vortex-formation now slows drainage.<span> </span><span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">It will be a while, though, before I can get two extra
bottles to destroy.<span> </span><span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Does anybody care to make a prediction and offer an explanation
why the results should be different in the two cases?<span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Nick <span></span></p>
</div>
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
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archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
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