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p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Science fiction: <i>The Traveler</i>, by John Twelve Hawks is set in a dystopian (near future) 'Big Brother' world of absolute and constant surveillance. The hero, a "Traveler" uses a random number generator to make every action choice, else be eliminated by the evil forces controlling the world. The world of the Traveler is a simple and short extrapolation: the surveillance state, especially London and the accumulation of Big Data that allows the "Govt." to predict with almost absolute accuracy where you will be, within 10 meters, 24 hours from now; based on your on-line presence and meta-data from your cell phone.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">That fiction seems to be a metaphorical expression of Sopolsky's argument—to me, at least.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Another kind of metaphor for 'Free Will' might be the behavior of those suffering from Cotard's Syndrome: thinking they are already dead, they act with no concern for consequences and their actions appear, to others, to be random or psychopathic.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Finally, the ideal of "non-attached" action and the omniscience that comes with achievement of Satori allows one to consciously and intentionally take the "correct," non karma accruing, action at every moment seems like the ultimate 'free will' in the sense that "you" intentionally make the correct turn at each juncture of Sopolsky's deterministic maze. Note this does not free you from the maze; merely allows you to actually choose each step of the path through the maze.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Fri, Jan 26, 2024, at 9:37 AM, Steve Smith wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MN0PR11MB5985BE84E2EEE433AC794FA8C57A2@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com"><div class="qt-WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">Does ChatGPT
have choices?</span><br></p></div></blockquote><p>I "can't help myself", so here goes:<br></p><p>I've been reading Sopolsky's "Behave" which paves the runway (or
exit ramp) for his recent "Determined". His deep background in
neuroendocrinology leads to some very compelling arguments which
pretty much degenerate to:<br></p><p>"do you believe in causality? if so, then where do you suppose
the spirit or soul intervene to break the chain dominoes that have
been set up by everything that you are and has happened to you up
to that instant?"<br></p><p>He does a fancy little mocking dance, three card monte style, of
homunculii he contrives for the purpose of debunking any fanciful
regression/recursion escape plans you might have in that
direction.<br></p><p>To hear him tell it we (as are all AIs/LLMs/etc) essentially
giant pachinko machines:<br></p><p align="center">:<img src="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko" alt=""><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Masamura_Gauge_All_15.jpg/225px-Masamura_Gauge_All_15.jpg" alt="" width="225" height="300"><br></p><p align="left">His arguments on the topic seem unassailable in
spite of my own deep and abiding sense of "choice" at many
levels. It also doesn't help my
cognitive dissonance that he speaks entirely colloquially using
many words we all associate with choice... he speaks _as if_ he
makes choices and others do as well even if he seems to ignore the
specific word, choice.<br></p><p align="left">I like the conceit of: "the universe is
deterministic but not prestateable"<br></p><p align="left">I guess this is why they call it "the HARD problem
of consciousness"? <br></p><p align="left">For those of you who read this far, it would seem
you "couldn't help yourself" or as my mother used to quip "you
must not have had anything better to do", and for those who have
not, the same goes for hitting <next> or <delete> (or
having set up a spam-filter at an earlier time to avoid repeating
the "decision" personally)... <br></p><p align="left">PS re: Breaking Bad<br></p><p align="left">I've only dropped a few Pachinko balls in my life,
but I couldn't help agonizing over the trajectory of each one,
feeling as if at every bounce they were at risk of "breaking bad"
(or "good")... since many here are at least part-time simulants
(as Glen I believe refers to himself), even the most aggressive
attempts at introducing "random" (noise, annealing, etc.) either
degenerate to "pseudo-random" or engage with a physical system
(e.g. sample a pixel-value from a webcam trained on a lava lamp)
which of course is deterministic if arbitrarily complex.<br></p><div><img src="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko" alt=""><br></div><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MN0PR11MB5985BE84E2EEE433AC794FA8C57A2@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com"><div class="qt-WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"></span><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"></span></span><br></p><div style="border-right-width:medium;border-right-style:none;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-width:medium;border-left-style:none;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><br></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Anyone interested in feeding FRIAM
Archive to a custom LLM. :-)<br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Prompt: <span style="color:rgb(236, 236, 241);background-color:rgb(52, 53, 65);background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-repeat:repeat;background-attachment:scroll;background-image:none;background-size:auto;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Segoe UI", sans-serif;">Interpret
Marcus use of gdb analogy in this thread:</span></span><br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(236, 236, 241);background-color:rgb(52, 53, 65);background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-repeat:repeat;background-attachment:scroll;background-image:none;background-size:auto;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Segoe UI", sans-serif;">GPT: </span></span><br></p></div><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">The analogy used by Marcus in the
context of the TV show "Breaking Bad" and the concept
of free will involves a comparison with using the
"step" command in GDB (GNU Debugger). GDB is a tool
used by programmers to debug code. The "step" command
in GDB allows the user to execute program code one
line at a time, observing the behavior and state of
the program at each step.<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">In "Breaking Bad," the main
character, Walter White, is drawn into a life of
crime. The analogy suggests that watching Walter
White's descent into this life is like using the
"step" command in GDB. Each step represents a decision
or action taken by Walter, leading him deeper into the
criminal world. Just as a programmer observes the
progression of a program one step at a time in GDB,
the viewer observes Walter's journey into criminality
in a step-by-step manner.<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">The implication here is that
Walter's choices, while appearing to be individual
conscious decisions, are part of an inevitable
progression, much like the sequential execution of
code in a debugger. This raises questions about free
will and determinism, mirroring the discussion in the
FRIAM group about whether free will is an illusion,
especially in the context of strong compulsions or
character traits that might limit one's range of
choices.<br></p></div></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div>____________________________________________<br></div><div> CEO Founder, Simtable.com<br></div><div> <a href="mailto:stephen.guerin@simtable.com" class="qt-moz-txt-link-freetext">stephen.guerin@simtable.com</a> <br></div><div> <br></div><div> Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab<br></div><div> <a href="mailto:stephenguerin@fas.harvard.edu" class="qt-moz-txt-link-freetext">stephenguerin@fas.harvard.edu</a><br></div><div> <br></div><div> mobile: (505)577-5828<br></div><p></p></div></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 4:20<span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span>PM
Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="qt-moz-txt-link-freetext">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border-top-width:medium;border-top-style:none;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-width:medium;border-right-style:none;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;"><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">GNU Debugger?<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div>---<br></div><div> Frank C. Wimberly<br></div><div> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br></div><div> Santa Fe, NM 87505<br></div><div> <br></div><div> 505 670-9918<br></div><div> Santa Fe, NM<br></div><p></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 4:11<span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span>PM
Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank" class="qt-moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border-top-width:medium;border-top-style:none;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-width:medium;border-right-style:none;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;"><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style=""><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">Walter White was drawn
into that life as sure as water runs downhill.
Watching him go deeper and deeper was like
repeating “step” in GDB. </span><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style=""><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span><br></p><div><div style="border-right-width:medium;border-right-style:none;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-width:medium;border-left-style:none;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style=""><b><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">From:</span></span></b><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" class="qt-moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jochen Fromm<br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 25, 2024 1:34
PM<br> <b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" class="qt-moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] Breaking Bad and
Free Will</span></span></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style=""> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style=""></p><div>Since one of
you mentioned today that free will is a
recurring FRIAM topic I was thinking about it
and found this SCIAM article that argues that
human beings do have the power to make conscious
choices.<br></div><div> <a href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/free-will-is-only-an-illusion-if-you-are-too/" target="_blank" class="qt-moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/free-will-is-only-an-illusion-if-you-are-too/</a><br></div><div> <br></div><div> On the other hand the drug addicts in Breaking
Bad and elsewhere clearly demonstrate that drug
addiction inevitably takes away our free will
and replaces it by a strong compulsion to get
and consume the drug, no matter how devastating
the consequences are.<br></div><p></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style=""> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style="">Robert McKee
says in his book "Story: Substance, Structure,
Style and the Principles of Screenwriting" that
true character is revealed in the choices a
human being makes under pressure. Could you say
that a strong character or personality reduce
our free will too, because they restrict our
choices and decisions? <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style=""> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style="">-J. <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style=""> <br></p></div></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / --
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