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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Eric writes:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">< It seems like I remember reading, years ago when this was in a spate of articles, about the anterior cingulate gyrus and the amygdala as brain regions that go active when some kind of conflict or heterogeneous
input needs to be resolved somehow. ><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">This seems consistent with Transformer-based neural nets.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10450673/">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10450673/</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
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</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> on behalf of David Eric Smith <desmith@santafe.edu><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, January 28, 2024 at 11:50 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Cc: </b>David Eric Smith <desmith@santafe.edu><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Breaking Bad and Free Will<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I mostly sit on the sidelines in these freewill and choice discussions, because I don’t know what anybody else wants from the terms and the language using them. I wonder whether the people using them know
what they want from them, or if they would regard that as a meaningful thing to ask of someone. So I hear evidence of this or that degree of regularity or context-sensitivity, and have no idea what problem they are supposed to be addressing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">But it leaves me wondering what questions I could ask that would give me some traction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">First, how much of this freewill and choice language is really anchored in its main features in the nature of human experience, and how much is exercise of a culturally inherited and partly arbitrary speech
convention? I mean this in the sense one might ask of language: there is some evidence that aspects of language use are inherently human and regular, as we see from invented isolated-group languages (deaf kids etc.) or from pidgin-creole transitions. But
any particular language is of course conventional in much of its structure, and most kids raised without a language will not, by themselves, create a substitute in time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I can imagine there are aspects of both for the freewill and choice thing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">But what would be the “native and unambiguous” aspect? I feel like to say anything, I first have to think of the activities going on in the mind like a hive of bees, partly autonomous but partly coordinated.
Other activities also always-working are serving to maintain coordination where it is needed. For example, if my elbow moves in one direction, then the laws of physics say it will not have moved in some different direction. So while there may be many chaotic
inputs to elbow movement, at some point they need to resolve into an action that there will only be one of.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">So if, David Chalmers-like, I am to claim that there is an experiential aspect called “feeling that I choose”, what the hell should that refer to? I could guess that, in cases where there is some significant
spread in the contributors to an action, and the resolving activities have to do some work against some tension to resolve to some definite action, the self-modeling and self-reporting aspects of awareness might present those as a report of a tension, to which
evolved language will then attach a tag “choosing” so that we can refer to it in ourselves and in each other. It seems like I remember reading, years ago when this was in a spate of articles, about the anterior cingulate gyrus and the amygdala as brain regions
that go active when some kind of conflict or heterogeneous input needs to be resolved somehow.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thus: to the extent that Cheyne-Stokes breathing doesn’t even need the brain, it is pretty hierarchical, and I don’t expect that it will ever report itself too me as offering freedom to “choose” something.
Presumably it won’t report itself at all. But other things look more like Seely’s process of a hive of bees choosing where to migrate. Lots of signals come in from significantly independent origins, and there can be a long period of balance among several
possible outcomes before something tips, and the hive goes somewhere. That tension will feel to me like some symbol needs to be attached to the tipping, and there is an opportunity for some “choice” or “will” term to get attached to those kinds of feelings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">But then what is all this “choice” and “free will” language doing, beyond just allowing us to label feelings? Where does it come from? What role is it playing? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I can imagine that it is something like a socially constructed prosthetic system. There is lots of stuff that happens in mind-activity, which minds don’t carry out regularly (or maybe at all) in isolation,
but which they can scaffold their way through by evolving external prosthetic systems. So, game boards for playing combinatorial games. Counting and rhythm for dealing with enumeration, time and other stuff. Many structure of language for organizing thought
patterns and images. We wouldn’t say that the minds aren’t “thinking” or “solving” whatever the problem is because they employ a prosthetic system in doing so. We can instead say that, like neoteny and like lots of other things that are extreme in human
minds, they have taken on capacity for a lot of complexity by offloading the completion of many parallelizable tasks to constructed niches, which the minds as a community then generate, maintain, and evolve.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Likewise, one can imagine that these abstractions of “will” and “choice” get used by some of the resolving-activities, to direct attention or imagination (among the many places it could be directed at any
moment) to images of others, social sanction, imaginations of fear of blame, guilt, reprisal, or whatever, and then one navigates through the language-mediated rules of that game, to results that feed back as part of the resolution-activity to send the hive
to one place or another. This would be consistent with thinking that a lot of freewill and choice language takes it most concrete form in legal and punitive institutionalism. There it is not only the hive of actions in individual minds that make some joint
move; it is all of those in a population of people with yet further constructed niches (rules, roles, authorizations of force, etc.) that act collectively to serve inputs to the coordinating activities at the “times of choice”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I don’t supposed I could weave a philosophical system out of such vague imagery, or even make it into anything psychological. But at least it gives me some metaphors to attach the terms to that don’t seem
completely unanchored (to me, by my admittedly arbitrary tastes).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Eric<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Jan 26, 2024, at 11:06 AM, Marcus Daniels <marcus@snoutfarm.com> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">LLMs are causal models. Science is about building causal models. It is bizarre to me that there are scientists that carve out a special case for their own mind. Even people
like Scott Aaronson talk this way. As far as I can tell, it is just vanity. </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, January 26, 2024 7:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] Breaking Bad and Free Will</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Does ChatGPT have choices?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">I "can't help myself", so here goes:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">I've been reading Sopolsky's "Behave" which paves the runway (or exit ramp) for his recent "Determined". His deep background in neuroendocrinology leads to some very compelling arguments which pretty much
degenerate to:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">"do you believe in causality? if so, then where do you suppose the spirit or soul intervene to break the chain dominoes that have been set up by everything that you are and has happened to you up to that
instant?"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">He does a fancy little mocking dance, three card monte style, of homunculii he contrives for the purpose of debunking any fanciful regression/recursion escape plans you might have in that direction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">To hear him tell it we (as are all AIs/LLMs/etc) essentially giant pachinko machines:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">:<span style="border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in"><img border="0" width="32" height="32" style="width:.3333in;height:.3333in" id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:~WRD0000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."><img border="0" width="225" height="300" style="width:2.3437in;height:3.125in" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:~WRD0000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">His arguments on the topic seem unassailable in spite of my own deep and abiding sense of "choice" at many levels. It also doesn't help my cognitive dissonance that he speaks entirely colloquially using
many words we all associate with choice... he speaks _as if_ he makes choices and others do as well even if he seems to ignore the specific word, choice.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">I like the conceit of: "the universe is deterministic but not prestateable"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">I guess this is why they call it "the HARD problem of consciousness"? <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">For those of you who read this far, it would seem you "couldn't help yourself" or as my mother used to quip "you must not have had anything better to do", and for those who have not, the same goes for hitting
<next> or <delete> (or having set up a spam-filter at an earlier time to avoid repeating the "decision" personally)... <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">PS re: Breaking Bad<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">I've only dropped a few Pachinko balls in my life, but I couldn't help agonizing over the trajectory of each one, feeling as if at every bounce they were at risk of "breaking bad" (or "good")... since
many here are at least part-time simulants (as Glen I believe refers to himself), even the most aggressive attempts at introducing "random" (noise, annealing, etc.) either degenerate to "pseudo-random" or engage with a physical system (e.g. sample a pixel-value
from a webcam trained on a lava lamp) which of course is deterministic if arbitrarily complex.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Anyone interested in feeding FRIAM Archive to a custom LLM. :-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Prompt: </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#ECECF1;background:#343541">Interpret Marcus use of gdb analogy in this thread:</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#ECECF1;background:#343541">GPT: </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">The analogy used by Marcus in the context of the TV show "Breaking Bad" and the concept of free will involves a comparison with using the "step" command in GDB (GNU Debugger).
GDB is a tool used by programmers to debug code. The "step" command in GDB allows the user to execute program code one line at a time, observing the behavior and state of the program at each step.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">In "Breaking Bad," the main character, Walter White, is drawn into a life of crime. The analogy suggests that watching Walter White's descent into this life is like using the
"step" command in GDB. Each step represents a decision or action taken by Walter, leading him deeper into the criminal world. Just as a programmer observes the progression of a program one step at a time in GDB, the viewer observes Walter's journey into criminality
in a step-by-step manner.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">The implication here is that Walter's choices, while appearing to be individual conscious decisions, are part of an inevitable progression, much like the sequential execution
of code in a debugger. This raises questions about free will and determinism, mirroring the discussion in the FRIAM group about whether free will is an illusion, especially in the context of strong compulsions or character traits that might limit one's range
of choices.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">____________________________________________<br>
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mobile: (505)577-5828<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 4:20</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">PM Frank
Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">GNU Debugger?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
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505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 4:11</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">PM Marcus
Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Walter White was drawn into that life as sure as water runs downhill. Watching him go deeper and deeper was like repeating “step” in GDB. </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Jochen Fromm<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, January 25, 2024 1:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[FRIAM] Breaking Bad and Free Will</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Since one of you mentioned today that free will is a recurring FRIAM topic I was thinking about it and found this SCIAM article that argues that human beings do have the power
to make conscious choices.<br>
<a href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/free-will-is-only-an-illusion-if-you-are-too/" target="_blank">https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/free-will-is-only-an-illusion-if-you-are-too/</a><br>
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On the other hand the drug addicts in Breaking Bad and elsewhere clearly demonstrate that drug addiction inevitably takes away our free will and replaces it by a strong compulsion to get and consume the drug, no matter how devastating the consequences are.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Robert McKee says in his book "Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting" that true character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under
pressure. Could you say that a strong character or personality reduce our free will too, because they restrict our choices and decisions? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">-J. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>
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<pre>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,sCrmFYOeLiSGFt6_aWfATMUnsDkXMYiyR9iTMStXll-YikuGfsEvmArxFYg9ZerlJpE5BRoGjEugeeXQuSAdR_C8_82BaUTm_GFKqUgb6wgP8gYvAWCd60Ts&typo=1">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,9wsbW0Eah7HQJ3iV-C_N1xKsSR-zE_yLIeeC3EfEv4qltX6Kw0Rju3Qtnf6rbPYMq_kxLUfDNzR2w_vUZD3f1AHHO6rFCIufDx8K8imqqGOK_2Q,&typo=1">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,sVsyVvPGEiklWRV4EdHEA8Gvi8lUHkUKLhxFxcPANverdjtUqxVawfs8t-YpH6tZy0mXDpzR_iKfpuyIdHdem-_6raEanNvrjo9dFa_1r974C2AAdg,,&typo=1">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,PrGhblmvTh8SMHXPHcn37gNjTHZCu83HwqT3OCaFy-3DMViDvZnUyNiGzDAd4_is32bWnGKHtdD6YSBvykuKlM4b-G0wJlErKI_zZJJHTRjkpOP7JvI,&typo=1">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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