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<p><anecdotal report> </p>
<blockquote>
<p>my dream life has been pretty elaborate from time to time and
most of it is not particularly unpleasant, but when I have had
unpleasant dreams they roughly fall into two categories: 1)
worrying the future; 2) worrying the past. </p>
<p>Mine are biased toward "frustration" over "fear". I'm rarely
being chased or at risk of falling off a cliff, but more likely
trying to find something or solve a problem or manipulate a
complex set of objects which are uncooperative.</p>
<p>Reports from my friends and acquaintances tend to revolve
around negative dreams and it feels as if that are the ones they
find worthy of reporting or perhaps of those more likely to
remember?</p>
</blockquote>
<p></anecdote><br>
</p>
<p>my casual interest in the research around dreaming has lead me to
believe that the two main functions of (human) dreams are: A) sort
through and untangle (groom?) ambiguities that build up in our
waking lives; B) practice a wide range of skills and ideations in
a "safe" context. Like a great deal of scientific studies, it is
the unexpected and extravagant which bubbles up into the popular
science press and then goes through another distillation as it
gets rendered into doom-scroll newsfeed lists... <br>
</p>
<p>Revonsuo's hypothesis is a specific example of B)? </p>
<p>It is worth noting that virtually all animals suffer badly if
they are deprived of sleep and in most? cases if they are deprived
of "dreaming"? Seems pretty deep in the function of neurobiology
maybe especially vertebrate and definitely mammalian? Seems like
Cetaceans (some? all?) do alternative lateral sleep/dreaming?<br>
</p>
<p>Not sure about Jellyfish... they seem to be dreaming all the
time? <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/3/24 11:44 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:202406040544.4545isuF085038@ame1.swcp.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">I
do not find Paul's book completely convincing. Randolph M.
Nesse's book "Good Reasons for Bad Feelings: Insights from the
Frontier of Evolutionary Psychiatry" shows much more clearly
that bad feelings prevent us from doing things which are bad
for us. They are threat avoidance programs from our genes. </span></p>
<br dir="auto">
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">His
remark about dreams are interesting nevertheless. He mentions
for instance this paper from Antti Revonsuo, "The
reinterpretation of dreams: An evolutionary hypothesis of the
function of dreaming" in </span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: italic; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">Behavioral
and Brain Sciences, 23</span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">(6)
(2000). 877–901; 904–1018; 1083–1121.</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://behavioralhealth2000.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/The-reinterpretation-of-dreams-An-evolutionary-hypothesis-of-the-function-of-dreaming.pdf">http://behavioralhealth2000.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/The-reinterpretation-of-dreams-An-evolutionary-hypothesis-of-the-function-of-dreaming.pdf</a></span></p>
<br dir="auto">
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">Revonsuo
argues one function of dreams may be to simulate threatening
events. They may help to improve threat prevention by
predicting dangerous situations and preparing us for unkown
dangers. Some fears seem to be hardcoded but this method has
limits. For example we are much more afraid of spiders and
snakes than of cars and fast food which are more dangerous to
us in the modern world</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://nautil.us/how-evolution-designed-your-fear-236858/">https://nautil.us/how-evolution-designed-your-fear-236858/</a></span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">-J.</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><br>
</span></p>
<div><br>
</div>
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<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: glen <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"><gepropella@gmail.com></a> </div>
<div>Date: 6/3/24 11:04 PM (GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> </div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Unpleasant dreams </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
I had a conversation with a psychiatrist friend of mine wherein
she assumed the dichotomy between "good feelings" and "bad
feelings" (e.g. an angry or relieved reaction to some thing like
the Trump verdict). Through about an hour of conversation, I'd
tried to convince her that dichotomy is false. Bad things are good
and good things are bad. The valence we assign is post-hoc. I
failed, of course. But...<br>
<br>
I feel the same way about phobias. It's a bit trite to suggest
that we like exploring our fears in a safe environment like at a
movie theater with a friend or two. But it's testament to the
milieu that monsters vs treasures is a false dichotomy. And it
goes beyond some complementarity like banking present pain for
future pleasure. It's truly a dual. The highs *are* the lows and
vice versa. If there is such a thing as free will, your assignment
of valence might be the only freedom you have.<br>
<br>
I don't know if Bloom explores this aspect. But the body of work
spawned from Friston and the minimization of surprisal targets it
directly. It's reasonable to believe that *agency* is what
provides the common substructure for an explanatory model of the
ascription of valence to an experience. The hypothetical to
explore is whether those experiences that promote agency are more
often ascribed as (or felt like) "good" ones, whether painful,
pleasurable, fearful, triumphant, or whatever the token ascribed.<br>
<br>
On 6/3/24 13:15, Jochen Fromm wrote:<br>
> Did you notice that some of the most successful movies from
Spielberg are about our deepest fears? Jurassic Park is about
monsters from the past. Jaws is about monsters which lurk in the
deep blue sea. Indiana Jones is about monsters (and treasures)
hiding in dark tombs.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Paul Boom remarks in his book "The Sweet Spot" that
psychologists have long known that unpleasant dreams are more
frequent than pleasant ones. Why is that so? Do unpleasant dreams
prepare us for possible dangers or are we just relieved that the
are over if they end?<br>
> <br>
>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-sweet-spot-paul-bloom?variant=40262533840930">https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-sweet-spot-paul-bloom?variant=40262533840930</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
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