<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Up to some strong interpretations of QM "physics is deterministic
but not pre-stateable" is the ground I usually stand on. I don't
need to invoke non-determinism to believe in open-ended
complexity... combinatoric (roughly factorial) arithmetic
overwhhelms counting, additive, multiplicative, even exponential
arithmetic? <br>
</p>
<p>I am very sympathetic with your (daveW) conceit that evolution
can do things which engineering generally has not, though I think
it is the simple amount of (combinatoric) complexity of the
"search" algorithm? I would claim that our technosphere is
significantly "evolved" but on top of our "engineering" efforts,
though some might argue that with the exception of a few
exceptionally significant "engineers" like Archimedes and Da
Vinci, most of our technological development before the age of
enlightenment or the industrial revolution, actually was an
evolutionary process (cut and try).</p>
<p>It might be a coincidence but I just happened to dial up the
latest Lex Fridman interview with Sara Walker ( <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://search.asu.edu/profile/1731899"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://search.asu.edu/profile/1731899</a>
) who some may know through her role as associate director of the
<span style="color: rgb(25, 25, 25); font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, "Nimbus Sans L", "Liberation
Sans", FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;">ASU-SFI Center for Biosocial Complex
Systems. <br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(25, 25, 25); font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, "Nimbus Sans L", "Liberation
Sans", FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;">She starts out with simple
Materialist/Vitalist contrasts but alludes (nearly) to Marcus
latest snark: <i>"</i></span><i>
Simulate from first principles: </i><i><a
href="https://www.vasp.at/" id="LPlnk899151"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://www.vasp.at/</a></i><i>"</i></p>
<p><i><br>
</i><span style="color: rgb(25, 25, 25); font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, "Nimbus Sans L", "Liberation
Sans", FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;"></span></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/13/24 7:11 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:d5f274f6-218c-4c05-952d-4c3390a887b1@app.fastmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<title></title>
<style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Naive, but honest question:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Can a computer program be
"complex?" Jochen seems to assert so, <i>"Every developer
knows that each piece of code which is added makes the system
more complex."</i> I would say no, it only makes it more
complicated.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">My answer is partially based on
the fact that code must execute on a deterministic machine and
the code itself (at least its compiled self) is nothing more
than a virtual machine, still a deterministic system. Even the
source code is a context free grammar, so none of the things
that make natural language complex (context sensitivity,
metaphor, interpolation) prevail. Otherwise the code would not
work?<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">A secondary motivation for asking,
I am working on an extended monograph/book on how to
intentionally 'evolve' complex systems like a business and the
software that supports it,or ULS ( <a
href="https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/library/ultra-large-scale-systems-the-software-challenge-of-the-future/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/library/ultra-large-scale-systems-the-software-challenge-of-the-future/</a>
), i.e., systems that <b><u>cannot</u></b> be "engineered."<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Wed, Jun 12, 2024, at 5:30 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="">
<p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">Emergence
as a kind of “software in the natural world"? If we mean
code by it, then yes, certainly. Every developer knows that
each piece of code which is added makes the system more
complex. Therefore we usually try to keep it simple. For
biological systems it is the DNA code. For cultural systems
it is the hidden code people do not want to talk about
because everything related to it is sacred (at least for the
group which it defines). The knights templar had their own
code, the order of the cistercians, the Franciscans and the
other religious orders and organizations as well. </span><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">Cults
and sects have their code ( which can be simple political
slogans such as "Make Your Country Great Again", "Build the
wall" and "Lock them up" or simply "Do not criticize the
supreme leader"). Criminal organizations have their code.
Ideologies and political parties have their code. Behind
every complex organism or organization there seems to be
some form of code or DNA that generates and maintains it. </span><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">Whenever
something is happening in nature it is either supper or
pairing time. Obviously because the underlying "selfish"
code has created bodies which have the directive to maintain
and replicate themselves. If we look at cultural systems,
for instance at political conventions or at religious
congregations, then we notice that every time something is
really happening at a larger scale is that the code becomes
active. People come together to read or express laws, rules,
guidelines and policies.</span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">So
I would say yes, if there is a secret then it is the code.
Definitely. I</span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);">s
there a new math for it? IMO it is quite hard to formulate
the expression of such a code in general mathematically. For
example how can you describe mathematically if the speech of
a president or party leader or priest has bigger
consequences or not? It is at least as complicated as
calculating a path integral in Quantum Field Theory.</span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);">What might be possible is to
calculate a probability how a group behavior changes
depending how frequent a rule is read, remembered and
expressed.</span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">-J.</span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"
align="left">
<div>-------- Original message --------<br>
</div>
<div>From: Roger Critchlow <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rec@elf.org"><rec@elf.org></a><br>
</div>
<div>Date: 6/12/24 8:05 PM (GMT+01:00)<br>
</div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Friam@redfish.com"><Friam@redfish.com></a><br>
</div>
<div>Subject: [FRIAM] new math of complexity<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Speaking of emergence, any takes on Phillip Ball's
article in Quanta?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I really liked his summary of the current
non-explanations for emergence, but I haven't had time to
read further.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- rec --<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .<br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
</div>
<div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
</div>
<div>to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>