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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Meanwhile there are semantic parsing systems like Boxer and MRS/ERG that represent natural language in a symbolic way. Evolutionary algorithms run on digital computers and large language models that encode and interpolate metaphors. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>steve smith<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 13, 2024 12:42 PM<br><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] new math of complexity<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p>Up to some strong interpretations of QM "physics is deterministic but not pre-stateable" is the ground I usually stand on. I don't need to invoke non-determinism to believe in open-ended complexity... combinatoric (roughly factorial) arithmetic overwhhelms counting, additive, multiplicative, even exponential arithmetic? <o:p></o:p></p><p>I am very sympathetic with your (daveW) conceit that evolution can do things which engineering generally has not, though I think it is the simple amount of (combinatoric) complexity of the "search" algorithm? I would claim that our technosphere is significantly "evolved" but on top of our "engineering" efforts, though some might argue that with the exception of a few exceptionally significant "engineers" like Archimedes and Da Vinci, most of our technological development before the age of enlightenment or the industrial revolution, actually was an evolutionary process (cut and try).<o:p></o:p></p><p>It might be a coincidence but I just happened to dial up the latest Lex Fridman interview with Sara Walker ( <a href="https://search.asu.edu/profile/1731899">https://search.asu.edu/profile/1731899</a> ) who some may know through her role as associate director of the <span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#191919;background:white'>ASU-SFI Center for Biosocial Complex Systems. <br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#191919;background:white'>She starts out with simple Materialist/Vitalist contrasts but alludes (nearly) to Marcus latest snark: <i>"</i></span><i> Simulate from first principles: <a href="https://www.vasp.at/">https://www.vasp.at/</a>"</i><o:p></o:p></p><p><i><br><br></i><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 6/13/24 7:11 AM, Prof David West wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Naive, but honest question:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Can a computer program be "complex?" Jochen seems to assert so, <i>"Every developer knows that each piece of code which is added makes the system more complex."</i> I would say no, it only makes it more complicated.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>My answer is partially based on the fact that code must execute on a deterministic machine and the code itself (at least its compiled self) is nothing more than a virtual machine, still a deterministic system. Even the source code is a context free grammar, so none of the things that make natural language complex (context sensitivity, metaphor, interpolation) prevail. Otherwise the code would not work?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>A secondary motivation for asking, I am working on an extended monograph/book on how to intentionally 'evolve' complex systems like a business and the software that supports it,or ULS ( <a href="https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/library/ultra-large-scale-systems-the-software-challenge-of-the-future/">https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/library/ultra-large-scale-systems-the-software-challenge-of-the-future/</a> ), i.e., systems that <b><u>cannot</u></b> be "engineered."<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Jun 12, 2024, at 5:30 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=qt><p style='margin:0in'>Emergence as a kind of “software in the natural world"? If we mean code by it, then yes, certainly. Every developer knows that each piece of code which is added makes the system more complex. Therefore we usually try to keep it simple. For biological systems it is the DNA code. For cultural systems it is the hidden code people do not want to talk about because everything related to it is sacred (at least for the group which it defines). The knights templar had their own code, the order of the cistercians, the Franciscans and the other religious orders and organizations as well. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p style='margin:0in'>Cults and sects have their code ( which can be simple political slogans such as "Make Your Country Great Again", "Build the wall" and "Lock them up" or simply "Do not criticize the supreme leader"). Criminal organizations have their code. Ideologies and political parties have their code. Behind every complex organism or organization there seems to be some form of code or DNA that generates and maintains it. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p style='margin:0in'>Whenever something is happening in nature it is either supper or pairing time. Obviously because the underlying "selfish" code has created bodies which have the directive to maintain and replicate themselves. If we look at cultural systems, for instance at political conventions or at religious congregations, then we notice that every time something is really happening at a larger scale is that the code becomes active. People come together to read or express laws, rules, guidelines and policies.<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'>So I would say yes, if there is a secret then it is the code. Definitely. I<span style='color:black'>s there a new math for it? IMO it is quite hard to formulate the expression of such a code in general mathematically. For example how can you describe mathematically if the speech of a president or party leader or priest has bigger consequences or not? It is at least as complicated as calculating a path integral in Quantum Field Theory.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'><span style='color:black'>What might be possible is to calculate a probability how a group behavior changes depending how frequent a rule is read, remembered and expressed.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'>-J.<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>-------- Original message --------<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>From: Roger Critchlow <a href="mailto:rec@elf.org"><rec@elf.org></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Date: 6/12/24 8:05 PM (GMT+01:00)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <a href="mailto:Friam@redfish.com"><Friam@redfish.com></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Subject: [FRIAM] new math of complexity<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Speaking of emergence, any takes on Phillip Ball's article in Quanta?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/">https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I really liked his summary of the current non-explanations for emergence, but I haven't had time to read further.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-- rec --<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></div></body></html>