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<p>Sara Walker: <br>
</p>
<p> "We only see emergence because we can't see time." <br>
</p>
<p>triggers thoughts of space-time "objects" and the hashlife
constructs...<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/13/24 1:57 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Meanwhile
there are semantic parsing systems like Boxer and MRS/ERG
that represent natural language in a symbolic way.
Evolutionary algorithms run on digital computers and large
language models that encode and interpolate metaphors. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>steve smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 13, 2024 12:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] new math of complexity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Up to some strong interpretations of QM "physics is
deterministic but not pre-stateable" is the ground I usually
stand on. I don't need to invoke non-determinism to believe
in open-ended complexity... combinatoric (roughly factorial)
arithmetic overwhhelms counting, additive, multiplicative,
even exponential arithmetic? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I am very sympathetic with your (daveW) conceit that
evolution can do things which engineering generally has not,
though I think it is the simple amount of (combinatoric)
complexity of the "search" algorithm? I would claim that our
technosphere is significantly "evolved" but on top of our
"engineering" efforts, though some might argue that with the
exception of a few exceptionally significant "engineers" like
Archimedes and Da Vinci, most of our technological development
before the age of enlightenment or the industrial revolution,
actually was an evolutionary process (cut and try).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>It might be a coincidence but I just happened to dial up the
latest Lex Fridman interview with Sara Walker ( <a
href="https://search.asu.edu/profile/1731899"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://search.asu.edu/profile/1731899</a>
) who some may know through her role as associate director of
the <span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#191919;background:white">ASU-SFI
Center for Biosocial Complex Systems. <br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#191919;background:white">She
starts out with simple Materialist/Vitalist contrasts but
alludes (nearly) to Marcus latest snark: <i>"</i></span><i>
Simulate from first principles: <a
href="https://www.vasp.at/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.vasp.at/</a>"</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><i><br>
<br>
</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 6/13/24 7:11 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Naive,
but honest question:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Can a
computer program be "complex?" Jochen seems to assert
so, <i>"Every developer knows that each piece of code
which is added makes the system more complex."</i> I
would say no, it only makes it more complicated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">My
answer is partially based on the fact that code must
execute on a deterministic machine and the code itself
(at least its compiled self) is nothing more than a
virtual machine, still a deterministic system. Even the
source code is a context free grammar, so none of the
things that make natural language complex (context
sensitivity, metaphor, interpolation) prevail. Otherwise
the code would not work?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">A
secondary motivation for asking, I am working on an
extended monograph/book on how to intentionally 'evolve'
complex systems like a business and the software that
supports it,or ULS ( <a
href="https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/library/ultra-large-scale-systems-the-software-challenge-of-the-future/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/library/ultra-large-scale-systems-the-software-challenge-of-the-future/</a>
), i.e., systems that <b><u>cannot</u></b> be
"engineered."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 12, 2024, at 5:30 PM,
Jochen Fromm wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="qt">
<p style="margin:0in">Emergence as a kind of “software in
the natural world"? If we mean code by it, then yes,
certainly. Every developer knows that each piece of code
which is added makes the system more complex. Therefore we
usually try to keep it simple. For biological systems it
is the DNA code. For cultural systems it is the hidden
code people do not want to talk about because everything
related to it is sacred (at least for the group which it
defines). The knights templar had their own code, the
order of the cistercians, the Franciscans and the other
religious orders and organizations as well. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in">Cults and sects have their code (
which can be simple political slogans such as "Make Your
Country Great Again", "Build the wall" and "Lock them up"
or simply "Do not criticize the supreme leader"). Criminal
organizations have their code. Ideologies and political
parties have their code. Behind every complex organism or
organization there seems to be some form of code or DNA
that generates and maintains it. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in">Whenever something is happening in
nature it is either supper or pairing time. Obviously
because the underlying "selfish" code has created bodies
which have the directive to maintain and replicate
themselves. If we look at cultural systems, for instance
at political conventions or at religious congregations,
then we notice that every time something is really
happening at a larger scale is that the code becomes
active. People come together to read or express laws,
rules, guidelines and policies.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in">So I would say yes, if there is a
secret then it is the code. Definitely. I<span
style="color:black">s there a new math for it? IMO it is
quite hard to formulate the expression of such a code in
general mathematically. For example how can you describe
mathematically if the speech of a president or party
leader or priest has bigger consequences or not? It is
at least as complicated as calculating a path integral
in Quantum Field Theory.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="color:black">What might
be possible is to calculate a probability how a group
behavior changes depending how frequent a rule is read,
remembered and expressed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in">-J.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">--------
Original message --------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">From: Roger
Critchlow <a href="mailto:rec@elf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><rec@elf.org></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Date:
6/12/24 8:05 PM (GMT+01:00)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">To: The
Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <a
href="mailto:Friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><Friam@redfish.com></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Subject:
[FRIAM] new math of complexity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Speaking of emergence, any takes on
Phillip Ball's article in Quanta?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I really liked his summary of the
current non-explanations for emergence, but I haven't
had time to read further.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
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