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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>The context problem is fixable. For example, through neural implants or robotics. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Another movie: <a href="https://youtu.be/3s0LTDhqe5A">https://youtu.be/3s0LTDhqe5A</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 5, 2024 7:46 AM<br><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Consciousness, as understood by humans, is, probably, an "emergent complex phenomena" as Pieter suggests. However, it is not an intrinsic one—i.e., emergent from within the entity or a part of it, like the brain. 'It' emerges from a complex intimate interplay between the entity (brain?) and the environment/context.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Mammals (humans, apes, elephants, dolphins, cats, dogs, ...) share sufficient context (overlapping constraints as to sensory input for example) that we can confidently believe that we share roughly the same form of consciousness.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>We have so little in common with Octopi, for example, that we can confidently infer both intelligence and consciousness, but it is definitely alien in nature and may very well be beyond our direct understanding.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Machine intelligence and consciousness might be possible, but there is almost zero overlap in context, so it is highly unlikely that we would ever recognize it. It is near absurd to think we can even infer either intelligence or consciousness from simply observing/analyzing outputs.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>so I believe,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, at 10:04 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=qt><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I don't follow your logic.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I totally agree with you that a reductionist explanation of consciousness is not possible. I don't claim to understand anything about consciousness, but I believe that it's an emergent complex phenomena.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>There are many examples where real world emergent behavior are duplicated in software. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>What makes consciousness different? Granted, it has not, to my knowledge been done, maybe there really are other factors involved? But I don't follow the explanation that because you can't explain consciousness using a reductionist approach it follows that, for example, an ABM approach will not some day explain consciousness.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Like in Joshua Epstein's if you haven't grown it you haven't explained it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Jul 5, 2024, 2:33 AM Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But they (AI) won't have consciousness as I, and presumably you, experience it. I have long argued that a reductionist explanation of that consciousness is not possible. Does that mean I accept a religious explanation? Not consciously.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>---<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Frank C. Wimberly<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Santa Fe, NM 87505<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>505 670-9918<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, 5:26<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span>PM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net" target="_blank">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding of language and consciousness...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/" target="_blank">https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-J.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>